Really Good Pete Rose Article

[mbgrayson]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

What is the only rule written on the wall in every locker room in baseball?

If someone is stupid enough to go ahead and break the only rule that baseball cares enough about to plaster it in plain view in every locker room, then you get what you deserve. What Mark McGwire did is in no way comparable to what Pete Rose did. At all. And for the record, Pete is a criminal as well. So now he has a double whammy.

I am sick of hearing that the gambling rule is the only rule posted on the locker room. Now mind you, I have never been in a MLB clubhouse, but I understand that the entire text of Rule 21 was posted therein. Here is that rule:

MAJOR LEAGUE RULES
Rule 21
MISCONDUCT

(a) MISCONDUCT IN PLAYING BASEBALL. Any player or person connected with a
club who shall promise or agree to lose, or to attempt to lose, or to fail
to give his best efforts towards the winning of any baseball game with
which he is or may be in any way concerned; or who shall intentionally
fail to give his best efforts towards the winning of any such baseball
game, or who shall solicit or attempt to induce any player or person
connected with a club to lose, or attempt to lose, or to fail to give his
best efforts towards the winning of any baseball game with which such
other player or person is or may be in any way connected; or who, being
solicited by any person, shall fail to inform his Major League President
and the Commissioner.

(b) GIFT FOR DEFEATING COMPETING CLUB. Any player or person connected
with a club who shall offer or give any gift or reward to a player or
person connected with another club for services rendered or supposed to
be or to have been rendered in defeating or attempting to defeat a
competing club, and any player or person connected with a club who
shall solicit or accept from a player connected with another club any
gifts or reward for any such services rendered, or supposed to have
been rendered, or who having been offered any such gift or reward,
shall fail to inform his League President or the Commissioner
immediately of such offer, and of all facts and circumstances therewith,
shall be declared ineligible for not less than three (3) years.

(c) GIFTS TO UMPIRES Any player or person connected with a club, who
shall give, or offer to give, any gift or reward to an umpire for services
rendered, or supposed to be or to have been rendered, in defeating or
attempting to defeat a competing club, or for the umpire's decision on
anything connected with the playing of a baseball game; and any umpire
who shall render, or promise or agree to render, any such decision
otherwise than on its merits, or who shall solicit or accept such gifts
or reward, or having been solicited to render any such decision
otherwise than on its merits, shall fail to inform the League President
or the Commissioner immediately of such offer or solicitation, and all
facts and circumstances therewith, shall be declared permanently ineligible.

(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or
employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in
connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared
ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

(e) VIOLENCE OR MISCONDUCT IN INTERLEAGUE GAMES. In case of any physical
attack or other violence upon an umpire by a player, or by an umpire upon
a player, or of other misconduct by an umpire or a player, during or in
connection with any interleague Major League game or any exhibition game
of a Major League Club with a club or team not a member of the same league,
the Commissioner shall impose upon the offender or offenders such fine,
suspension, ineligibility or other penalty, as the facts may warrant in
the judgement of the Commissioner.

(f) OTHER MISCONDUCT. Nothing herein contained shall be construed as
exclusively defining or otherwise limiting acts, transactions, practices
or conduct not to be in the best interests of Baseball; and any and all
other acts, transactions, practices or conduct not to be in the best
interests of Baseball are prohibited and shall be subject to such
penalties, including permanent ineligibility, as the facts in the
particular case may warrant.

(g) RULE TO BE KEPT POSTED. A printed copy of this Rule shall be kept
posted in each clubhouse.

So it is simply untrue to state that only the gambling rule is posted in every clubhouse.

Secondly, I indicated in my earlier post that I have no problem with Pete remaining permanently ineligible, as called for in this rule.

My problem is with the rule adopted that linked being on the permanently ineligible to play list with eligibility for the HOF ballots. This rule was put in place right AFTER Pete made his deal to not contest the commissioner's finding that he bet on baseball. It is also worth noting once again that Pete's deal with MLB specifically provided for his right to request reinstatement after one year. He has made that request, and MLB has left it sit in limbo for YEARS.

Pete Rose had every reason to expect that when he made his original deal with MLB to be placed on the permanently ineligible to play list, that he could still be elected into the HOF.

There is frankly far too little acknowledgement of the fact that although Rose did wrong big time, he has not gotten what he had a right to expect from MLB; a fair shot at the HOF.

And BTW, I think what McGuire did was far worse: he actually cheated in how he played the game by taking steroids, cheapening the single season HR record forever.

[savafan]

Originally Posted by mbgrayson

And BTW, I think what McGuire did was far worse: he actually cheated in how he played the game by taking steroids, cheapening the single season HR record forever.

Let's not leave out the guy who holds the career homerun record as well.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by mbgrayson

My problem is with the rule adopted that linked being on the permanently ineligible to play list with eligibility for the HOF ballots. This rule was put in place right AFTER Pete made his deal to not contest the commissioner's finding that he bet on baseball. It is also worth noting once again that Pete's deal with MLB specifically provided for his right to request reinstatement after one year. He has made that request, and MLB has left it sit in limbo for YEARS.

The fact that he still hasn't been let back in tells you that he wasn't going to get back in even if he had been able to apply quicker.

Pete Rose had every reason to expect that when he made his original deal with MLB to be placed on the permanently ineligible to play list, that he could still be elected into the HOF.

He also had every reason to expect that he would be kicked out of the game the first time he decided to bet on baseball.

There is frankly far too little acknowledgement of the fact that although Rose did wrong big time, he has not gotten what he had a right to expect from MLB; a fair shot at the HOF.

He should have thought about that before he went out and broke baseballs rules. Even if they weren't ones that would "get him banned from the HOF" at the time, it was enough to keep plenty from voting for him if they chose. The HOF says that you don't have to solely vote on the numbers one put up. What Pete did off of the field reflects very poorly on baseball.

And BTW, I think what McGuire did was far worse: he actually cheated in how he played the game by taking steroids, cheapening the single season HR record forever.

It's McGwire. And it really isn't worse. Perhaps what a majority of his generation did was worse, but what he, individually did, no.

Pete Rose cheated the game of baseball in a much different way. Pete cheated baseball, the Reds and this great city that I live in of a great person to look up to as an iconic player, someone to celebrate for the rest of time. Now he is simply a liar, crook, gambler and a disgrace to all of them. Pete is all about Pete. He doesn't care about anyone or anything else. The only reason he finally admitted what he did, was because he was going to make a big profit off of it by selling a book where he admitted doing it. The guy simply has no shame.

[mbgrayson]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Pete Rose cheated the game of baseball in a much different way. Pete cheated baseball, the Reds and this great city that I live in of a great person to look up to as an iconic player, someone to celebrate for the rest of time. Now he is simply a liar, crook, gambler and a disgrace to all of them. Pete is all about Pete. He doesn't care about anyone or anything else. The only reason he finally admitted what he did, was because he was going to make a big profit off of it by selling a book where he admitted doing it. The guy simply has no shame.

Even if this is all true, and I don't seriously disagree, Pete should still be in the HOF. If we want a character test to screen out jerks, then Ty Cobb should never have been allowed in the HOF. (From Wikipedia: "Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator for being "uppity." When a black night watchman intervened, Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him." Later, "He [Cobb]announced his retirement and headed home to Augusta, Georgia. Shortly thereafter, Tris Speaker also retired as player-manager of the Cleveland team. The retirement of two great players at the same time sparked some interest, and it turned out that the two were coerced into retirement because of allegations of game-fixing brought about by Dutch Leonard, a former pitcher of Cobb's. Leonard accused former pitcher and outfielder Smoky Joe Wood and Cobb of betting on 1919... in a Tiger-Cleveland game played in Detroit on September 25, 1919, in which they allegedly orchestrated a Detroit victory to win the bet. Leonard claimed proof existed in letters written to him by Cobb and Wood. Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis held a secret hearing with Cobb, Speaker, and Wood. A second secret meeting amongst the AL directors led to Cobb and Speaker resigning with no publicity; however, rumors of the scandal led Judge Landis to hold additional hearings. Leonard subsequently refused to appear at the hearings. Cobb and Wood admitted to writing the letters, but they claimed it was a horse racing bet, and that Leonard's accusations were in retaliation for Cobb's having released Leonard from the Tigers to the minor leagues. Speaker denied any wrongdoing. On January 27, 1927, Judge Landis cleared Cobb and Speaker of any wrongdoing because of Leonard's refusal to appear at the hearings."). If the HOF is about baseball, Pete should be there.

No doubt many of us were crushed when we finally realized what Pete did. But Cincinnati hasn't been asked to give back the 1975 or 1976 World Championship trophy.... or the 1990 one obtained by a team that Pete had helped put together in 1987-89. Pete hurt Cincinnati, but he was also a key to winning three World Championships.

Pete Rose was a great baseball player, even though he is a deeply flawed human being.

[George Anderson]

Pete said long ago he really could care less if he is ever inducted into the HOF. He simply wants back in the game to coach or manage. If Pete doesn't give a damn about getting into the HOF then I could care less to. His main objective in getting back in the game IMO would be to get a nice sized, steady paycheck.

If Pete ever is inducted, when he gives his induction speech he will drop sponsors names and wear sponsors hats away from the podium as much as humanly possible. If Pete sees a chance to make a buck he isn't gonna pass on it.

With Pete all you have to do is follow the money.

That is hardly a secret.

[Roy Tucker]

I think that because Pete bet on baseball, he should never be allowed to serve in any role (player, coach, advisor, owner, etc) ever again. He has proven that he is untrustworthy anywhere close to the playing field. I get all that.

But what I don't get is him being ineligible for the HoF. Just what purpose does that serve? Besides vendettas and agendas and all that?

I'll also say I don't think he'd get voted in even if he was eligible with all the water that has gone over his dam.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by mbgrayson

Even if this is all true, and I don't seriously disagree, Pete should still be in the HOF. If we want a character test to screen out jerks, then Ty Cobb should never have been allowed in the HOF. (From Wikipedia: "Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator for being "uppity." When a black night watchman intervened, Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him." Later, "He [Cobb]announced his retirement and headed home to Augusta, Georgia. Shortly thereafter, Tris Speaker also retired as player-manager of the Cleveland team. The retirement of two great players at the same time sparked some interest, and it turned out that the two were coerced into retirement because of allegations of game-fixing brought about by Dutch Leonard, a former pitcher of Cobb's. Leonard accused former pitcher and outfielder Smoky Joe Wood and Cobb of betting on 1919... in a Tiger-Cleveland game played in Detroit on September 25, 1919, in which they allegedly orchestrated a Detroit victory to win the bet. Leonard claimed proof existed in letters written to him by Cobb and Wood. Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis held a secret hearing with Cobb, Speaker, and Wood. A second secret meeting amongst the AL directors led to Cobb and Speaker resigning with no publicity; however, rumors of the scandal led Judge Landis to hold additional hearings. Leonard subsequently refused to appear at the hearings. Cobb and Wood admitted to writing the letters, but they claimed it was a horse racing bet, and that Leonard's accusations were in retaliation for Cobb's having released Leonard from the Tigers to the minor leagues. Speaker denied any wrongdoing. On January 27, 1927, Judge Landis cleared Cobb and Speaker of any wrongdoing because of Leonard's refusal to appear at the hearings."). If the HOF is about baseball, Pete should be there.

There are several differences here.... One situation is certainly hearsay. One situation wasn't. There is proof that Pete bet on baseball and there has been since the 80's. One had a meeting that was "secret", while Pete was investigated openly in the public. Perhaps it was a sign of the times, but either way, the situations took place very differently. Thirdly, the older guys were cleared of wrong doings. Pete was not.

[westofyou]

The game was almost destroyed by gambling in the early part of the 20th century, the 1919 series is a result of looking the other way for almost 2 decades, the ensuing result was the growth of the game that made Pete a very rich man, legally.

However that was not good enough for him and he decided he was above the game, but guess what? He wasn't and still isn't, citing incidents from 100 years ago does nothing to lighten Roses guilt, if anything it heightens how far the game has come since then

[757690]

Originally Posted by westofyou

The game was almost destroyed by gambling in the early part of the 20th century, the 1919 series is a result of looking the other way for almost 2 decades, the ensuing result was the growth of the game that made Pete a very rich man, legally.

However that was not good enough for him and he decided he was above the game, but guess what? He wasn't and still isn't, citing incidents from 100 years ago does nothing to lighten Roses guilt, if anything it heightens how far the game has come since then

Not that this justifies Rose in anyway, but baseball looked the other way the whole of his playing days. Everyone knew he had a gambling problem and nothing was done until Bart decided to do something.

It's easy to understand why Rose was shocked by how hard baseball came down on him, considering the treatment he had gotten up to that point.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by 757690

Not that this justifies Rose in anyway, but baseball looked the other way the whole of his playing days. Everyone knew he had a gambling problem and nothing was done until Bart decided to do something.

It's easy to understand why Rose was shocked by how hard baseball came down on him, considering the treatment he had gotten up to that point.

Pete had no idea how hard they would come down on him or how light they would be UNTIL he decided to make that first bet. He broke the rules. He is paying the consequences, and rightfully so.

[757690]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Pete had no idea how hard they would come down on him or how light they would be UNTIL he decided to make that first bet. He broke the rules. He is paying the consequences, and rightfully so.

Correct.

And the fact that they looked the other way and did nothing for decades after he made his first bet can explain why he was confused when they finally decided to come down on him with an iron fist.

[savafan]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Thirdly, the older guys were cleared of wrong doings. Pete was not.

Actually, if I remember the original agreement, it stated that the commissioner's office would make no formal finding that Rose bet on baseball.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by savafan

Actually, if I remember the original agreement, it stated that the commissioner's office would make no formal finding that Rose bet on baseball.

There is a difference between making no formal finding and saying it didn't happen. And as we now know, without any question, it DID happen. Anyone who paid any attention in the late 80's knew.

[savafan]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

There is a difference between making no formal finding and saying it didn't happen. And as we now know, without any question, it DID happen. Anyone who paid any attention in the late 80's knew.

True, but there's also a lot of difference between a secret meeting with the commissioner and saying Cobb and Speaker's transgression didn't happen as well.

[marcshoe]

I remember the day the ban was announced well--it was one of my most disappointing as a fan. One thing that seems to be overlooked these days was that the possibility of future reinstatement was front and center. The arguments that this is case-closed because the rules say this is permanent ignore the reality of the ban's context.