PAC 12 Football

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by reds1869

ESPN is guilty of that all the time. During the Xavier-Gonzaga game the announcers kept referring to Mark Lyons as a senior when in fact he is a junior. They did the same thing during the XU/Vandy game and pretty much every other ESPN broadcast featuring Xavier this year. It can't be that hard to do research on a roster, can it?

Depending on the reasoning, he may technically be a senior. For instance, medical redshirts are considered to be part of their class until after they've exhausted their eligibility. They then petition for an additional year. It's almost always granted, but until they do that, they're technically Seniors.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

Depending on the reasoning, he may technically be a senior. For instance, medical redshirts are considered to be part of their class until after they've exhausted their eligibility. They then petition for an additional year. It's almost always granted, but until they do that, they're technically Seniors.

It's my understanding that medical redshirts refer to wiping out a player's season of eligibility after they've played in a few games (but under 30%). Then they have to apply. Since Luck didn't play at all his first year, no petition will be necessary in order for him to be eligible to come back for his senior season.

I believe that all NCAA athletes have 5 yrs to complete four years of eligibilty. Thus Luck is a senior academically (but who cares about that if you're a football fan) but a junior athletically

[Hoosier Red]

That's good information Sea Ray. You are certainly more versed than I.

One other thing that could play into the classification, all of which comes from the school I'm sure, is how the school handles it.

I know Notre Dame for example rarely if ever recognizes redshirts until they in fact apply for and receive their fifth year from the university. I think it's the general policy that the rule should be a "student-athlete" should graduate in 4 years.

Stanford and Xavier may have similar policies.(I don't have any insight, simply recognizing some situations which are different than the standard state school.)

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

That's good information Sea Ray. You are certainly more versed than I.

One other thing that could play into the classification, all of which comes from the school I'm sure, is how the school handles it.

I know Notre Dame for example rarely if ever recognizes redshirts until they in fact apply for and receive their fifth year from the university. I think it's the general policy that the rule should be a "student-athlete" should graduate in 4 years.

Stanford and Xavier may have similar policies.(I don't have any insight, simply recognizing some situations which are different than the standard state school.)

To the best of my knowledge there is nothing to apply for in Luck's case. NCAA rules allow you 5 yrs to complete 4 yrs of athletics. If you sit out your freshman year you are allowed to play four more without any school or governing body signing off on it so I disagree with your statement that he must apply for a 5th yr.

[Sea Ray]

This comes right off the NCAA website:

The term "redshirt" is used to describe a student-athlete who does not participate in competition in a sport for an entire academic year. If you do not compete in a sport the entire academic year, you have not used a season of competition. For example, if you are a qualifier, and you attend a four-year college your freshman year, and you practice but do not compete against outside competition, you would still have the next four years to play four seasons of competition.



http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaah...y_seasons.html

I have no idea where folks are getting the idea that a player like Luck has to apply to come back to Stanford next year...

[IslandRed]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

To the best of my knowledge there is nothing to apply for in Luck's case. NCAA rules allow you 5 yrs to complete 4 yrs of athletics. If you sit out your freshman year you are allowed to play four more without any school or governing body signing off on it so I disagree with your statement that he must apply for a 5th yr.

You're mixing up NCAA rules with what Hoosier Red said about Notre Dame policy (and then wondering aloud if Stanford had the same policy -- which, based on a roster glance, it does).

If you are at Notre Dame and finish your fourth year having only played three, you do not need to petition the NCAA to play the fifth year. You do, however, need special approval from Notre Dame to come back and play it at Notre Dame.

It's semantics to an extent because scholarships always have to be renewed on an annual basis. But it does affect how the school refers to players' classes. At a normal school, a player who plays five years has this typical sequence:

Freshman, Redshirt Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior

That's just a custom, though, it's not an NCAA-mandated thing. At Stanford, the progression goes:

Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior, Redshirt Senior

At Notre Dame, I think they have a different name for the fifth-year guys but it's based on the same principle -- "seniors" are fourth-year players, and it may or may not be their final year of eligibility.

So, by Stanford's figuring, Andrew Luck was a senior this year. At most schools, he would be called a junior.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by IslandRed

You're mixing up NCAA rules with what Hoosier Red said about Notre Dame policy (and then wondering aloud if Stanford had the same policy -- which, based on a roster glance, it does).

If you are at Notre Dame and finish your fourth year having only played three, you do not need to petition the NCAA to play the fifth year. You do, however, need special approval from Notre Dame to come back and play it at Notre Dame.

It's semantics to an extent because scholarships always have to be renewed on an annual basis. But it does affect how the school refers to players' classes. At a normal school, a player who plays five years has this typical sequence:

Freshman, Redshirt Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior

That's just a custom, though, it's not an NCAA-mandated thing. At Stanford, the progression goes:

Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior, Redshirt Senior

At Notre Dame, I think they have a different name for the fifth-year guys but it's based on the same principle -- "seniors" are fourth-year players, and it may or may not be their final year of eligibility.

So, by Stanford's figuring, Andrew Luck was a senior this year. At most schools, he would be called a junior.

If Luck needs special approval to come back to Stanford, this is the first I've heard of it.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

If Luck needs special approval to come back to Stanford, this is the first I've heard of it.

I believe he has or is going to graduate so he would need to apply for some type of graduate school. I'm sure this wouldn't be a problem if he wanted to come back, but he isn't so it doesn't really matter.

[IslandRed]

Again, it's mostly semantics. At ND a player is expected to graduate in four years and it is considered an exception when he is allowed to come back for year number five even if he still has eligibility. I don't know what Stanford's specific policy is, although they do have fifth-year seniors, so we can presume Luck could have been one had he so chosen. What we do know is that Stanford appears to use the same policy as Notre Dame on how they refer to their athletes' class. And that's what this whole debate is about, whether Luck is a senior or a junior, and the answer depends on who you're asking.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27

I believe he has or is going to graduate so he would need to apply for some type of graduate school. I'm sure this wouldn't be a problem if he wanted to come back, but he isn't so it doesn't really matter.

If he graduates then of course he'd have to take some graduate courses but this notion that Stanford operates like Notre Dame is unfounded:

Stanford Athletics Parents Guide to NCAA Rules

Student-athletes are permitted to compete in four
seasons of competition in any one sport within five
calendar years; this is sometimes referred to as the
“five-year clock.” This clock starts when a studentathlete
initially registers full-time and attends his/her
first day of classes for a term other than summer school
at a collegiate institution.
A student-athlete uses a season of competition if he/she
participates in any competition, regardless of the length
of time, during a season. For example, if an athlete
plays in one minute of one game, he/she has used
one season of competition. One exception to this rule
is during the athlete’s initial year of enrollment, when
a freshman may participate in preseason exhibition
contests and practice scrimmages without triggering a
season of competition (if applicable to his/her particular
sport). A student-athlete who does not compete at all
during a season is commonly referred to as a “redshirt.”





http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/...NCAA-Rules.pdf

How do you know he's not going to come back? Has he said that or is that merely speculation on your part?

We really need to be careful about being loose with the facts here. That's what gives the internet a bad name. Clearly Stanford, unlike ND does allow for athletes to redshirt contrary to the impression given by some around here and I see no factual basis to say as of today that "he isn't coming back".

[RBA]

Feb 3, 2012: Andrew Luck, "Coach, I want to comeback next year"

Coach, "You passed the deadline to apply for Stanford, sorry, cannot help you. Maybe you can try Ohio State?"

[IslandRed]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

If he graduates then of course he'd have to take some graduate courses but this notion that Stanford operates like Notre Dame is unfounded:

Stanford operates like Notre Dame in the one specific aspect that is relevant to the subject at hand: Why the university itself called Andrew Luck a senior instead of a redshirt junior.

Everything else with respect to comparing the two schools should be considered an attempt to explain why they do it that way, and not a declaration that they do everything exactly alike. To the extent it might have muddied the water, my apologies.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by IslandRed

Stanford operates like Notre Dame in the one specific aspect that is relevant to the subject at hand: Why the university itself called Andrew Luck a senior instead of a redshirt junior.

Everything else with respect to comparing the two schools should be considered an attempt to explain why they do it that way, and not a declaration that they do everything exactly alike. To the extent it might have muddied the water, my apologies.

Stanford as an institution has not been consistent in how they refer to Luck. The same website that lists him as a senior in his bio also has the following:

--Honored as the Academic All-America® Team Member of the Year for Division I football, Luck is a junior who is an Architectural Design major with a 3.48 G.P.A.



--2010 (SOPHOMORE): Was named the Pac-10's Offensive Player of the Year...was also a finalist for the Heisman Trophy,

[BuckeyeRed27]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Stanford as an institution has not been consistent in how they refer to Luck. The same website that lists him as a senior in his bio also has the following:

--Honored as the Academic All-America® Team Member of the Year for Division I football, Luck is a junior who is an Architectural Design major with a 3.48 G.P.A.



--2010 (SOPHOMORE): Was named the Pac-10's Offensive Player of the Year...was also a finalist for the Heisman Trophy,

It is just a difference between athletic eligibility and his actual standing as a student. Why are we still talking about this?

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27

It is just a difference between athletic eligibility and his actual standing as a student. Why are we still talking about this?

Well we've talked about it up until this point to clear up a muddied situation. When we started some thought that he was indeed a senior athletically; others thought he'd have to petition to get an extra year; there was even some silly talk of medical redshirting that obviously doesn't apply here. Finally there was talk that Stanford has the same no redshirt policy as Notre Dame and Duke. To think we cleared all that up in 30 posts is not bad IMO.

As to your point, as fans of NCAA football, I doubt many of us care about his standing as a student. It's all about football.