Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

camisadelgolf · 01-05-2012, 06:22 PM

#1 C Devin Mesoraco
#2 SS Billy Hamilton
#3 SS Zack Cozart
#4 RHP Dan Corcino
#5 RHP Robert Stephenson
#6 1B Neftali Soto
#7 OF Yorman Rodriguez
#8 UT Todd Frazier
#9 SS Didi Gregorius
#10 2B Henry Rodriguez
#11 LHP Tony Cingrani
#12 OF Juan Duran
#13 RHP Kyle Lotzkar
#14 3B Gabriel Rosa
#15 C Tucker Barnhart
#16 3B David Vidal
#17 RHP J.C. Sulbaran
#18 OF Ryan LaMarre
#19 1B Donald Lutz
#20 OF Denis Phipps

camisadelgolf · 01-05-2012, 06:24 PM

Whoops, I forgot to make the voting public. Deal with it, I guess.

RedsManRick · 01-05-2012, 06:36 PM

Have curve, will travel. I went with Josh Smith. Decent fastball and a killer breaking pitch. Don't know much about a third offering, but you can't argue with the results. It will be interesting to see how he handles Bakersfield.

dougdirt · 01-05-2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Have curve, will travel. I went with Josh Smith. Decent fastball and a killer breaking pitch. Don't know much about a third offering, but you can't argue with the results. It will be interesting to see how he handles Bakersfield.

I think Smith profiles pretty well out of the bullpen. When he was there in 2010 he really impressed me. I think his future lies there and he can be very Sam LeCure like, but with a better fastball.

HokieRed · 01-05-2012, 09:14 PM

Very close for me here: 4 or 5 guys I could make the argument for. But I think Villareal deserves a vote. I'd like to see more K's out of him, but otherwise the peripherals look good: 41 to 8 K's to BB at Bakersfield, 68 to 20 at Carolina. (109/28 for the whole season) 1.22 WHIP in 91.2 at Carolina. Also finished the season strong: 6 starts in August, 36.2 / 27 Hits / 3 Hrs / 4W /23 K /.199 BA against. ERA 3.44 in those starts, even got his GO/AO over 1 at 1.15. I'm hoping this carries over for him.

Red Daddy · 01-05-2012, 09:40 PM

Went with Brackman, I know he lost control last year, but he was No. 5 in BA for the Yankees starting last year. He's lost time to injuries too. Lots of potential. I think he should be top 12-15 on our list now.

mace · 01-05-2012, 10:59 PM

Voted Chacin last time, but since he appears to have no chance and Drew Hayes is now on the ballot, I'll switch to Hayes. He's a great athlete who was a record-setting high school quarterback in Tennessee, and seems to have the competitive mentality to embrace the closer role. Was nearly impeccable last year for Dayton.

Edd Roush · 01-06-2012, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Daddy

Went with Brackman, I know he lost control last year, but he was No. 5 in BA for the Yankees starting last year. He's lost time to injuries too. Lots of potential. I think he should be top 12-15 on our list now.

Red Daddy, as one of the biggest Brackman fans on the board, I have followed him more than most. If this was post-2010 that we acquired Brackman (and therefore, he did not have his 2011 in the books yet), I might have Brackman as our #2 prospect. Ahead of Hamilton, Cozart, Stephenson, etc and only behind Devin Mesoraco. In 2010, he cut his BB rate from 6.4 to 2.5 and was showing major signs of progress. His K:BB was a great 3.23 and his ERA was a respectable 3.90.

But, then 2011 happened, his K rate dropped, his BB rate rose to 7 and the Yankees had to pull their #5 prospect from the AAA rotation because he was performing so poorly. At the end of 2011, since Brackman was already on the 40-man roster, he got to pitch a couple times in the bigs. He was barely breaking 90 MPH and looked like a shell of the guy he was in 2010.

Brackman performed so poorly that the Yankees flat out non-tendered him. He has a lot of warts at this point. Granted, pretty much every prospect has warts past the top 10, but his BB rate of 7 makes it hard to vote for him any time soon.

Brackman does he say he is throwing high 90s again. I don't know how he's picked up that much velocity since he pitched in September, but that is what he's saying.

I guess I can understand a vote for Brackman now, but I wouldn't trade a Crabbe or Garrett to get him. Therefore, I will vote for Crabbe, then Garrett before I vote for Brackman.

camisadelgolf · 01-06-2012, 10:44 AM

Brackman wasn't non-tendered--his option was declined. Personally, I think Brackman is going to surprise a lot of people this year, but he's a reliever now, and I don't place nearly as much value in relievers as I do starters and position players.

Edd Roush · 01-06-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

Brackman wasn't non-tendered--his option was declined. Personally, I think Brackman is going to surprise a lot of people this year, but he's a reliever now, and I don't place nearly as much value in relievers as I do starters and position players.

How much was the option for? I know I said the incorrect thing in my post before, but how much different is declining an option compared to being non-tendered.

I agree that Brackman could surprise, but like you said he is a reliever and he is coming off a 7.0 BB/9. Right now, if you want to go with a reliever, I think you have to go with Judy over Brackman. Judy did struggle a little with his AAA control at 4.3 BB/9, but that's not nearly as bad as Brackman and Judy did have a 10.4 K/9 last year.

I would rather have the starter too, which is why I am going Crabbe, Garrett, Judy then Brackman.

Kc61 · 01-06-2012, 11:23 AM

Comment on the Reds' system.

Since the Dan O'Brien days, the Reds have done a spectacular job of building a farm system.

First they had the wonderful group of Cueto, Bailey, Votto, Bruce, etc. All are major guys on a good team. Votto is a true star player. Others may be. Stubbs, Heisey, others are contributors, joined slightly after.

Then they had the wave of Alonso, etc. which may have had slightly less upside -- but had excellent depth. So several of them got traded off for major players. Mesoraco is ready to be a mainstay. Francisco is ready to be a contributor.

While there is something of a gap at the upper levels now, the group currently at the A and AA levels should be another fine group. Most are listed on the RedsZone top prospects list. For sure, the loss of Torreyes hurts, but there is Hamilton, Corcino, Soto (a bit more advanced), Stephenson (less advanced), Yorman, Duran, Cingrani, and all the guys who did well at Billings last year.

O'Brien, Krivsky and Walt get kudos because the Reds now have the currency to make acquisitions of players by trading prospects, or have the ability to promote the prospects internally.

And, with one or more extra draft choices in the next draft, they are set to continue this trend.

This aspect of the operation has to be applauded.

marcshoe · 01-06-2012, 11:55 AM

Went with Smith. A biased vote, since we share a college, but I am interested in seeing how his curve holds up as he progresses.

Mario-Rijo · 01-06-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Have curve, will travel. I went with Josh Smith. Decent fastball and a killer breaking pitch. Don't know much about a third offering, but you can't argue with the results. It will be interesting to see how he handles Bakersfield.

Sounds an awful lot like Joseph just at a lower level and a different breaking pitch (slider). So it begs the question why not Donnie? For that matter why any of the remaining arms over Joseph, last years #11 RZ prospect? Something about fans and what have you done for me lately kind of thinking.

The DARK · 01-06-2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Sounds an awful lot like Joseph just at a lower level and a different breaking pitch (slider). So it begs the question why not Donnie? For that matter why any of the remaining arms over Joseph, last years #11 RZ prospect? Something about fans and what have you done for me lately kind of thinking.

Joseph's a reliever coming off one of the worst seasons by our top prospects in recent memory. Many of the others still have a fair chance to start, including Crabbe, and have put up excellent numbers in the past season. Smith had better stats than Corcino, who's being touted as our top pitching prospect. Joseph has more to prove, and needs to have a rebound a la Boxberger before he gets seen as another top prospect.

The DARK · 01-06-2012, 03:01 PM

Brackman also has loads of potential and arguably the best stuff of anybody left, but he's got a lot of proving to do before I vote for him, and his control is all over the place. He had as many walks as strikeouts this past season. Prospects from teams like the Yankees and Red Sox also tend to get overrated due to media coverage... on other teams he'd be considered just another burnout. I don't think he deserved another major league deal.

View Poll Results: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect?
3B Junior Arias	6	13.33%
RHP Andrew Brackman	7	15.56%
1B/3B Sean Buckley	4	8.89%
RHP Alejandro Chacin	0	0%
RHP Tim Crabbe	7	15.56%
LHP Amir Garrett	1	2.22%
UT Brodie Greene	2	4.44%
RHP Drew Hayes	1	2.22%
LHP Donnie Joseph	4	8.89%
RHP Josh Judy	2	4.44%
RHP Chad Rogers	0	0%
RHP Josh Smith	6	13.33%
RHP Pedro Villarreal	2	4.44%
OF Kyle Waldrop	0	0%
2B Ryan Wright	3	6.67%
other (please list below)	0	0%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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01-05-2012, 06:22 PM	#1
camisadelgolf Vampire Weekend @Bernie's Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 11,311	Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? #1 C Devin Mesoraco #2 SS Billy Hamilton #3 SS Zack Cozart #4 RHP Dan Corcino #5 RHP Robert Stephenson #6 1B Neftali Soto #7 OF Yorman Rodriguez #8 UT Todd Frazier #9 SS Didi Gregorius #10 2B Henry Rodriguez #11 LHP Tony Cingrani #12 OF Juan Duran #13 RHP Kyle Lotzkar #14 3B Gabriel Rosa #15 C Tucker Barnhart #16 3B David Vidal #17 RHP J.C. Sulbaran #18 OF Ryan LaMarre #19 1B Donald Lutz #20 OF Denis Phipps

01-05-2012, 06:24 PM	#2
camisadelgolf Vampire Weekend @Bernie's Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 11,311	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Whoops, I forgot to make the voting public. Deal with it, I guess. __________________ Get MLBtraderumors Reds updates on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Reds-R...33794710005587 http://i.imgur.com/1bCKpaH.jpg

01-05-2012, 06:36 PM	#3
RedsManRick Stat Wanker Hodiernus Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 14,919	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Have curve, will travel. I went with Josh Smith. Decent fastball and a killer breaking pitch. Don't know much about a third offering, but you can't argue with the results. It will be interesting to see how he handles Bakersfield. __________________ Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

01-05-2012, 09:14 PM	#5
HokieRed Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,053	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Very close for me here: 4 or 5 guys I could make the argument for. But I think Villareal deserves a vote. I'd like to see more K's out of him, but otherwise the peripherals look good: 41 to 8 K's to BB at Bakersfield, 68 to 20 at Carolina. (109/28 for the whole season) 1.22 WHIP in 91.2 at Carolina. Also finished the season strong: 6 starts in August, 36.2 / 27 Hits / 3 Hrs / 4W /23 K /.199 BA against. ERA 3.44 in those starts, even got his GO/AO over 1 at 1.15. I'm hoping this carries over for him.

01-05-2012, 09:40 PM	#6
Red Daddy Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 190	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Went with Brackman, I know he lost control last year, but he was No. 5 in BA for the Yankees starting last year. He's lost time to injuries too. Lots of potential. I think he should be top 12-15 on our list now.

01-05-2012, 10:59 PM	#7
mace Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,169	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Voted Chacin last time, but since he appears to have no chance and Drew Hayes is now on the ballot, I'll switch to Hayes. He's a great athlete who was a record-setting high school quarterback in Tennessee, and seems to have the competitive mentality to embrace the closer role. Was nearly impeccable last year for Dayton.

01-06-2012, 10:44 AM	#9
camisadelgolf Vampire Weekend @Bernie's Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 11,311	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Brackman wasn't non-tendered--his option was declined. Personally, I think Brackman is going to surprise a lot of people this year, but he's a reliever now, and I don't place nearly as much value in relievers as I do starters and position players. __________________ Get MLBtraderumors Reds updates on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Reds-R...33794710005587 http://i.imgur.com/1bCKpaH.jpg

01-06-2012, 11:23 AM	#11
Kc61 Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 10,837	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Comment on the Reds' system. Since the Dan O'Brien days, the Reds have done a spectacular job of building a farm system. First they had the wonderful group of Cueto, Bailey, Votto, Bruce, etc. All are major guys on a good team. Votto is a true star player. Others may be. Stubbs, Heisey, others are contributors, joined slightly after. Then they had the wave of Alonso, etc. which may have had slightly less upside -- but had excellent depth. So several of them got traded off for major players. Mesoraco is ready to be a mainstay. Francisco is ready to be a contributor. While there is something of a gap at the upper levels now, the group currently at the A and AA levels should be another fine group. Most are listed on the RedsZone top prospects list. For sure, the loss of Torreyes hurts, but there is Hamilton, Corcino, Soto (a bit more advanced), Stephenson (less advanced), Yorman, Duran, Cingrani, and all the guys who did well at Billings last year. O'Brien, Krivsky and Walt get kudos because the Reds now have the currency to make acquisitions of players by trading prospects, or have the ability to promote the prospects internally. And, with one or more extra draft choices in the next draft, they are set to continue this trend. This aspect of the operation has to be applauded. Last edited by Kc61; 01-06-2012 at 02:56 PM.

01-06-2012, 11:55 AM	#12
marcshoe Ex-tixe Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Just past Mars Posts: 4,470	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Went with Smith. A biased vote, since we share a college, but I am interested in seeing how his curve holds up as he progresses.

01-06-2012, 03:01 PM	#15
The DARK Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 941	Re: Who is Redszone's #21 prospect? Brackman also has loads of potential and arguably the best stuff of anybody left, but he's got a lot of proving to do before I vote for him, and his control is all over the place. He had as many walks as strikeouts this past season. Prospects from teams like the Yankees and Red Sox also tend to get overrated due to media coverage... on other teams he'd be considered just another burnout. I don't think he deserved another major league deal.