2011 Bengals Discussion Part II

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Brady and Big Ben the first times around were anything but elite QB's. You could say the same thing about NYG with Eli, he was a mediocre QB when the Giants won the super bowl. I don't think Dalton is all that far off from being a Brady, Big Ben, Dilfer, or Eli SB quality QB. Now he may not develop into they QB those guys became but that is a whole different story.

I think most of the battle is getting to the SB. In recent years the games have been ultra competitive with both sides having a chance to win. Can Dalton be as good as a guy like Rex Grossman? Hasslebeck? Alex Smith? Joe Flacco? etc. or guys who made it right to the verge or into the SB. I think so. It just takes an entire team effort, one that a great QB can make a little easier.

That is one heck of a spin on Brady, Eli & Ben etc. I don't think any of those latter QB's have won a SB. If you are ok with just getting there then I guess I understand your position.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

That is one heck of a spin on Brady, Eli & Ben etc. I don't think any of those latter QB's have won a SB. If you are ok with just getting there then I guess I understand your position.

When Brady won his first Super Bowl he was a game manager. When Ben won the Super Bowl he posted the worst QB rating of any SB QB. Eli was an average QB at the time and the game was won by a dominant defensive line. If you go back and look at the guys at the time of their first SB win they really weren't that great of QB's. NE was a total team effort that relied a lot of D. Ben was a game manager who could make plays but they relied on a heavy run game and a dominant D. It wasn't until Tomlin got there that Ben was really unleashed and turned into the HOF QB he is today.

I don't have a problem giving credit where credit is due. If you want to look at their 2nd and 3rd wins/appearances then you have a legit claim that it takes an elite QB to win. But in looking at their 1st appearances they were hardly elite.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Eli was an average QB at the time and the game was won by a dominant defensive line.

...and a circus catch...

[Ohayou]

In other news, Jon Kitna retired like 4 days ago.

[RiverRat13]

Zimmer is out as a candidate for Miami.

In his first mock draft, Kiper has the Bengals taking Dennard and Lamar Miller.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

When Brady won his first Super Bowl he was a game manager. When Ben won the Super Bowl he posted the worst QB rating of any SB QB. Eli was an average QB at the time and the game was won by a dominant defensive line. If you go back and look at the guys at the time of their first SB win they really weren't that great of QB's. NE was a total team effort that relied a lot of D. Ben was a game manager who could make plays but they relied on a heavy run game and a dominant D. It wasn't until Tomlin got there that Ben was really unleashed and turned into the HOF QB he is today.

I don't have a problem giving credit where credit is due. If you want to look at their 2nd and 3rd wins/appearances then you have a legit claim that it takes an elite QB to win. But in looking at their 1st appearances they were hardly elite.

Lets say I agree with you. This team doesn't have a dominant unit like those teams did. Which makes my point this team needs a couple of real difference makers. Or we need to rapidly build an entire unit strong enough to carry us there and typically speaking that unit almost always is a defense.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Lets say I agree with you. This team doesn't have a dominant unit like those teams did. Which makes my point this team needs a couple of real difference makers. Or we need to rapidly build an entire unit strong enough to carry us there and typically speaking that unit almost always is a defense.

Oh I am not disagreeing with this.

They way I look at the Bengals they have a difference maker at WR, two very good LT, two potential difference makers on the DL in Dunlap and Adkins with Peko being a nice solid player. They appear to have a solid franchise QB in place who you expect to get better as he develops more. The nice thing is they are set in positions that require very high draft picks, QB, LT, RT. I do think that they need to adderss their back 7, get another WR, and need to address RB.

I think if they get creative this offseason in moving Clemens to S that may shore up one faulty defensive spot. They need CB because no one knows what will happen to Hall when he comes back. Outside of CB I think they need to add more difference makers, anywhere on the field.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Oh I am not disagreeing with this.

They way I look at the Bengals they have a difference maker at WR, two very good LT, two potential difference makers on the DL in Dunlap and Adkins with Peko being a nice solid player. They appear to have a solid franchise QB in place who you expect to get better as he develops more. The nice thing is they are set in positions that require very high draft picks, QB, LT, RT. I do think that they need to adderss their back 7, get another WR, and need to address RB.

I think if they get creative this offseason in moving Clemens to S that may shore up one faulty defensive spot. They need CB because no one knows what will happen to Hall when he comes back. Outside of CB I think they need to add more difference makers, anywhere on the field.

What do you mean by two very good LT?

The only thing I'd add to your assessment is offensive line. I think we are in dire need of better guard play. I think we need not one but two new Gs in 2012. I'd put that need at #2 on the list behind CB.

RB is also a big need but this is a position where you rarely need a top draftpick. You can do very well picking these guys up late like Rudi Johnson, Arian Foster and even Willie Parker

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

What do you mean by two very good LT?

The only thing I'd add to your assessment is offensive line. I think we are in dire need of better guard play. I think we need not one but two new Gs in 2012. I'd put that need at #2 on the list behind CB.

RB is also a big need but this is a position where you rarely need a top draftpick. You can do very well picking these guys up late like Rudi Johnson, Arian Foster and even Willie Parker

Slip up. I meant a very good LT, not two.

Guard play does need to get better but at the same time teams don't really place a premium on guard play. You can get a good guard fairly cheap, unlike a LT or RT.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Slip up. I meant a very good LT, not two.

Guard play does need to get better but at the same time teams don't really place a premium on guard play. You can get a good guard fairly cheap, unlike a LT or RT.

I understand but then we have the Hutchinson and Steinbach signings. My bet is NO Saints G Carl Nicks will also get similar money. Perhaps we can find another Bobbie Williams off of someone's scrap heap

I think guard play is very important. In fact no matter how good our center and LT were, we've never had a good o-line without a stud guard like Montoya or Steinbach in there

[Tony Cloninger]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Slip up. I meant a very good LT, not two.

Guard play does need to get better but at the same time teams don't really place a premium on guard play. You can get a good guard fairly cheap, unlike a LT or RT.

To act like this team does not need better Guard play and continue to go cheap is bad thinking. This team continues it's habit of skimping in some areas and the worst is Guard. They need to draft one in their 1st 3 picks....and even a Center as well.

THis team had had barely average to bad Centers since Braham. I do not know how they can look at their Guard and Center play, especially LG.....for the last 5 years and wonder why they can never establish any running game at all..... yet Marvin wants to be a running team.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by RiverRat13

In his first mock draft, Kiper has the Bengals taking Dennard and Lamar Miller.

That would almost be a worst-case scenario.

I'd like to see the Bengals choose two from Richardson, DeCastro, Kirkpatrick, Barron and Floyd. Some of them won't be available when we pick, some of them will.

If Richardson is off the board, I do not want to see the Bengals draft a RB in the first round. Ditto for Kirkpatrick and CB. Not enough value with the second tier of guys at those positions (Miller and Wilson at RB, Jenkins and Dennard at CB). Similarly, Barron is the only safety in the draft with a 1st round grade.

[RiverRat13]

Does anyone think Leon Hall ends up at safety next year? I could see him as a step slower coming back from a torn achilles tendon.

[RiverRat13]

Originally Posted by Benihana

That would almost be a worst-case scenario.

I'd like to see the Bengals choose two from Richardson, DeCastro, Kirkpatrick, Barron and Floyd. Some of them won't be available when we pick, some of them will.

DeCastro is the guy I hope they get. They have to get at least one corner and address the interior OL at some point in their first three picks.

As far as free agency, interior OL and an upgrade at WR2 should be the priorities. Dalton could benefit from a veteran across from Green to go with all of the young guys.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by RiverRat13

Does anyone think Leon Hall ends up at safety next year? I could see him as a step slower coming back from a torn achilles tendon.

I see Clemens going there before Hall but it is an idea.