Drew Stubbs is the perfect #8 hitter.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Danny Serafini

So I'm not the only one who thought that.

Nope. I've had the same thought for awhile now too.

[mth123]

4th against LHP. Out of the line-up or occassionally in the 7 hole against RHP.

[Ravenlord]

fantasy style:
2B Phillips
C Hannigan
RF Bruce
1B Votto
LF Heisey/Ludwick
3B Francisco
SS Cozart
CF Stubbs

teh Dusty:

CF Stubbs
2B Phillips
1B Votto
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
LF Ludwick/Heisey
C Hanigan
SS Cozart

[puca]

Originally Posted by Ravenlord

fantasy style:
2B Phillips
C Hannigan
RF Bruce
1B Votto
LF Heisey/Ludwick
3B Francisco
SS Cozart
CF Stubbs

teh Dusty:

CF Stubbs
2B Phillips
1B Votto
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
LF Ludwick/Heisey
C Hanigan
SS Cozart

In my fantasy Mez gets more starts at C than Hanigan

[AmarilloRed]

Despite having a horrible year, Drew Stubbs was:

3rd in runs scored-92
4th in hits-147
1st in steals-40
3rd in walks-63

Unless someone can come up with someone they expect will do better in those categories this year, Drew should be at the top of the batting order.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by AmarilloRed

Despite having a horrible year, Drew Stubbs was:

3rd in runs scored-92
4th in hits-147
1st in steals-40
3rd in walks-63

Unless someone can come up with someone they expect will do better in those categories this year, Drew should be at the top of the batting order.

Phillips, Brandon.

I think those are good numbers for Stubbs, but he can't get on base as a leadoff hitter. He changes his approach too much, his power vanishes. I like him 7th, where historically, throughout his professional career, he has thrived.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by TRF

Phillips, Brandon.

I think those are good numbers for Stubbs, but he can't get on base as a leadoff hitter. He changes his approach too much, his power vanishes. I like him 7th, where historically, throughout his professional career, he has thrived.

That's a pretty narrow way of looking at it. Stubbs historically struggles at the dish when there is a runner on base. Would that mean he should be the leadoff hitter? Besides, his OBP is better as a leadoff hitter than it is as a 7-hole hitter.

[CesarGeronimo]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Before we move Drew to the 8th slot, we need to see that Mersaco is for real. We also need a better hitting SS than Cozart.

I would bat the catcher 7th, and the SS 8th on this team.

Ideally, you bat Drew #6 to leverage his power, but he's not a horrid leadoff hitter. I know the OBP people are cringing at that statement, but the "old school" thought about sacrificing a little OBP for speed isn't completely insane. Of all the players on the team, Drew is more likely to score from 1b when he makes it there (all things being equal).. Given that the only other real choice for leadoff is Phillips, having Stubbs lead off is a reasonable compromise if you want Phillips to bat in the middle of the order.

One of the things about Stubbs in the leadoff position is that it puts more pressure on him. He looks (stats, anyone?) like he is less comfortable in that position and he has said he would rather not lead off.

Edit: I just posted this and then saw that stats had been provided in the post above mine. Thanks!

[CesarGeronimo]

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

That's a pretty narrow way of looking at it. Stubbs historically struggles at the dish when there is a runner on base. Would that mean he should be the leadoff hitter? Besides, his OBP is better as a leadoff hitter than it is as a 7-hole hitter.

OK, I just look at his stats and the OBP, as you know, is almost the same: leadoff .328, 7th .323 in 793 ABs; while there is a bigger difference in his OPS leadoff .716, OBP .760. in 330 ABs. Those numbers make him a below average leadoff hitter 96 OPS+, but an above average 7th hitter 107 OPS+.

The stat that jumps out at me, though, is that his career OPS against righties is .843 and against lefties is just .685. With the right-handed Heisey strangely having even worse numbers against lefties so far in his major league career (.631 v. L in 86 ABs, .870 v. R in 193 ABs), it seems the Reds should either believe it's a small sample size issue with Heisey and start him, Ludwick and Bruce in the outfield against most lefties; or pick up somebody else who can get some starts in centerfield vs. left-handed pitchers.

I did check and Ludwick has played a little bit of centerfield in his career, but not much - about 5 games a season. If he or Bruce played center well enough, then you could think about starting Todd Frazier in left against lefties, but I don't think that's much of an option for frequent use. I think Heisey, as a righty, is likely to start hitting lefties better (and I've seen numbers posted on RZ that say he hit lefties well as you'd expect in the minors), so if Stubbs continues to struggle next season the thing to do may be to sit him down more often against lefties because his numbers against righties are still hopefully going to be pretty good for a CF.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by CesarGeronimo

OK, I just look at his stats and the OBP, as you know, is almost the same: leadoff .328, 7th .323 in 793 ABs; while there is a bigger difference in his OPS leadoff .716, OBP .760. in 330 ABs. Those numbers make him a below average leadoff hitter 96 OPS+, but an above average 7th hitter 107 OPS+.

The stat that jumps out at me, though, is that his career OPS against righties is .843 and against lefties is just .685. With the right-handed Heisey strangely having even worse numbers against lefties so far in his major league career (.631 v. L in 86 ABs, .870 v. R in 193 ABs), it seems the Reds should either believe it's a small sample size issue with Heisey and start him, Ludwick and Bruce in the outfield against most lefties; or pick up somebody else who can get some starts in centerfield vs. left-handed pitchers.

I did check and Ludwick has played a little bit of centerfield in his career, but not much - about 5 games a season. If he or Bruce played center well enough, then you could think about starting Todd Frazier in left against lefties, but I don't think that's much of an option for frequent use. I think Heisey, as a righty, is likely to start hitting lefties better (and I've seen numbers posted on RZ that say he hit lefties well as you'd expect in the minors), so if Stubbs continues to struggle next season the thing to do may be to sit him down more often against lefties because his numbers against righties are still hopefully going to be pretty good for a CF.

I think that is backwards. Stubbs career OPS is .834 vs LHP and .697 vs RHP. Stubbs is a lefty killer and its RHP where the Reds need the boost. The .843 you reference is against LH Starting Pitchers. The .685 is against RH Starting Pitchers.

[Ravenlord]

Originally Posted by puca

In my fantasy Mez gets more starts at C than Hanigan

*fantasy still accounts for how 99% of MLB managers view catchers of their age groups...semi-unrelated, while i'll be annoyed by it, it wouldn's shock me in any way for Messarocco to start in AAA and Navaro to be Hannigan's back-up.

[HokieRed]

Originally Posted by mth123

I think that is backwards. Stubbs career OPS is .834 vs LHP and .697 vs RHP. Stubbs is a lefty killer and its RHP where the Reds need the boost. The .843 you reference is against LH Starting Pitchers. The .685 is against RH Starting Pitchers.

Ditto. The team is obviously very unbalanced to the right hand side, and, for all the good work Walt has done, this has only been made worse by the trading of Alonso. Stubbs needs to lead off against LHP and sit a lot against RHP.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I couldn't agree with the premise of this thread any more. However, unfortunately, the only person that matters -- Dusty Baker -- disagrees.

Speed kills, baby!

[TOBTTReds]

I like him 8th for mostly the same reasons and was thinking this last week. My top reasons:

Last year, our pitchers bunted into a ton of FC's, and it wasn't their fault. A lot of Ramon Hernandez getting thrown out at 2nd. I'm guessing almost ZERO FC's if Stubbs is on base.

He'll get on base a lot more in the 8th spot, and we need him on base.

I honestly want everyone else to bat in front of him. I think our lineup has a chance to be the fiercest lineup in the NL by a long shot.

BP
Cozart
Votto
Bruce
Rolen
Heisey/Ludwick
Mez
Stubbs

[AmarilloRed]

Let's not overlook the point of OBP is to score runs. Drew has scored 90 or more runs 2 years in a row. I seriously doubt he'd score those runs hitting #8. For the reasons I listed before, he should hit either 1 or 2.