Day Game Again 1:05 start; Thursday 4.12.12 Reds @ Nationals

[Degenerate39]

I try not to complain about Dusty but this was just stupid letting Simon pitch in that situation. He shouldn't even be on the team.

[reds1869]

Originally Posted by Degenerate39

I try not to complain about Dusty but this was just stupid letting Simon pitch in that situation. He shouldn't even be on the team.

I agree completely, but an awful lot of people are enamored with Simon's stuff. I just to don't see it; to me he's the bullpen version of EV.

[Nasty_Boy]

Originally Posted by 757690

Sorry, I thought you were arguing about using Marshall to start the inning.

Still, if the Reds don't score in the top of the next inning, you would need Simon or someone else to get the save, if the Reds eventually did get the lead at some point.

I understand that but isn't that think bass ackwards? You have to give yourself the opportunity to get the lead. If they take the lead later and Simon(or whoever) is left to save the game and they blow it, so be it. You can't plan for a possible save and leave your best bullpen arms in the pen. Who cares who gets the save... You have to give your team a chance. If this was the 6th, 7th, or 8th Dusty does not hesitate to pull Simon and go to the LHP. I'm gonna go Herm Edwards and say you play to win the game!

[lollipopcurve]

10 innings. 12 Ks. 2 BBs. 5 hits. 2 runs. Tells me all I need to know about this game.

[Nasty_Boy]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

10 innings. 12 Ks. 2 BBs. 5 hits. 2 runs. Tells me all I need to know about this game.

No doubt the offense didn't carry it's weight... But even with those terrible numbers, the Reds had new life and were in a tie game. You have a guy in Marshall that you trade for and extend, but you can't use him for an inning and a third? He's throw 2 innings this season and hasn't had a save... Can you not at least bring him (or Bray) in to get a lefty with 2 outs? I'm doing what I can to give Votto and Bruce another AB. After that I let the chips fall where they may... But I'm firing all of my bullets and getting Marshall in the game in a high leverage situation. Dusty just refuses to use his closer in non-save situations.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Nasty_Boy

No doubt the offense didn't carry it's weight... But even with those terrible numbers, the Reds had new life and were in a tie game. You have a guy in Marshall that you trade for and extend, but you can't use him for an inning and a third? He's throw 2 innings this season and hasn't had a save... Can you not at least bring him (or Bray) in to get a lefty with 2 outs? I'm doing what I can to give Votto and Bruce another AB. After that I let the chips fall where they may... But I'm firing all of my bullets and getting Marshall in the game in a high leverage situation. Dusty just refuses to use his closer in non-save situations.

This is exactly right.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Nasty_Boy

No doubt the offense didn't carry it's weight... But even with those terrible numbers, the Reds had new life and were in a tie game. You have a guy in Marshall that you trade for and extend, but you can't use him for an inning and a third? He's throw 2 innings this season and hasn't had a save... Can you not at least bring him (or Bray) in to get a lefty with 2 outs? I'm doing what I can to give Votto and Bruce another AB. After that I let the chips fall where they may... But I'm firing all of my bullets and getting Marshall in the game in a high leverage situation. Dusty just refuses to use his closer in non-save situations.

I think you need to review the game logs for Cordero. He pitched in several non save situations over his tenure.

[Nasty_Boy]

Originally Posted by traderumor

I think you need to review the game logs for Cordero. He pitched in several non save situations over his tenure.

If you took my last sentence as being literal, then please forgive me... I knew when I typed it that someone would say that about Cordero, because that's how Redzone operates. For that I offer my apologies... But I would bet that 95% of Cordero appearances in non save situations were just get him work. The rest, or games like today he would not have went to Cordero. He would use Cordero in tie games at home in the 9th-10th inning because there is no possible save. The only other times he went to Cordero in non save spots were in marathon games where his hand was forced.

I don't know where to look it up but in Cordero's years with the Reds, what percentage of his appearance do you think were in non save spots? Dusty manages the end of the game based on a stat... Heck, 3 weeks ago Dusty wouldn't committ to using Marshall as a closer because he couldn't go 3 days in a row. Marshall wasn't looked at as "closer material", but Madson blows out his arm and Marshall now HAS to close.

Dusty isn't the only manager to do these things, but it doesn't make me feel better... If I were Davy Johnson, I would have stuck with Clippard. He was dominant in the 8th. They way he looked, I doubt the Reds coulda scored 2 in the 9th.

[GAC]

Wow! The Dusty haters are out real early this year. LOL

Can he be questioned on a few of the decisions he has made so far? Sure. But the fact of the matter is... we're a little over one week into the season, the team is 3-4 (7 games), and it's mainly due to an offense getting off to a slow start. We have our lead-off guy (Brandon) out, we have guys who we KNOW are going to perform (hit) coming out of the gate slow and not doing so right now. That will change.

Just too early, IMO, for some to be panicking.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by GAC

Wow! The Dusty haters are out real early this year. LOL

Can he be questioned on a few of the decisions he has made so far? Sure. But the fact of the matter is... we're a little over one week into the season, the team is 3-4 (7 games), and it's mainly due to an offense getting off to a slow start. We have our lead-off guy (Brandon) out, we have guys who we KNOW are going to perform (hit) coming out of the gate slow and not doing so right now. That will change.

Just too early, IMO, for some to be panicking.

I suspect this will stir things up again, but the Dusty hating was in mid-season form before the season started - actually it's been fairly non-stop since he was hired. I agree with you though - if the offense were there, all of this would have been moot.

[cumberlandreds]

This may have been discussed. I haven't read everything on this thread. But why wasn't Bray brought in with the lefty hitter Bernadina at the plate? That's the thing I question. I'm not getting into the Simon thing. Its obvious and was obvious to the Orioles too, that he didnn't belong in MLB.

[redsmetz]

I'm going to copy what I wrote in the Simon thread here because I think it's pertinent to the game discussion too:

I'm not quite sure what folks really expected Baker to be able to do in this particular game situation.

Latos went only five innings. Going into the game, we knew that Chapman and Ondrusek would not be available because of previous use. LeCure pitched two innings, followed by Arredondo doing the same.

That left Simon, Bray and Marshall. The game is tied in extra innings with, conceivably, no end in sight. We have to acknowledge that fact.

Part of the problem is that we'd used the two long guys who may go long already, both for two inning stints. In a game like this, that's not surprising. Then the game gets tied. Another big problem is Bray is limited as to how much he can go. Likewise, Marshall as the closer is not a long guy.

What other option did Dusty have? Let's say he brings Bray in to face Bernardina and gets the final out? Bray can come out in the 11th and then he's done. If we've made it through that, that leaves only Marshall among the relievers. Or we go to one of our starters (not sure who was up there), but what do we do if we're going 2 to 3 or 4 or 5 innings more?

Complain about Baker all you want, but the larger issue is on one hand, Bray's inability to pitch much now and whether Simon's good enough to help this club (I'm not convinced). That's not a manager issue, that's a GM issue. I didn't see a reasonable option in this game, given that if we aren't going to score, we have to assume a game can go on forever. And then it's either Bray, Marshall or one of the starters eating innings. Even to this day, we continue to hear about Harang pitching those multiple innings in San Diego.

[cumberlandreds]

Very good points RM.

I would have brought in Bray for the 10th,Marshall for the 11th and from the 12th on it would have been Simon. IMO, Simon is your long reliever to bring in early if the starter falters or for those long extra inning games. Just a case of Dusty not thinking through situations ahead of time.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

Very good points RM.

I would have brought in Bray for the 10th,Marshall for the 11th and from the 12th on it would have been Simon. IMO, Simon is your long reliever to bring in early if the starter falters or for those long extra inning games. Just a case of Dusty not thinking through situations ahead of time.

I can't disagree with your logic here. It's perfectly reasonable, so given your thought, Baker did have options. Potential or not, it's tough to see Simon try to work out whatever management thinks he brings to this club during real games. Had he been someone we picked up earlier in Spring Training and had time to do this in meaningless games, that's one thing. But I'm forever haunted by the 1999 season and just have needed one stinking win anywhere in the season - every game counts and I hate to lose a game we've made a comeback in.

Then again, we have lots of other things starting off slowly - I'd like the rest of the team make one poorly thrown pitch be irrelevant.

[Vottomatic]

It's not just Dusty's decisions this year so far. It's his decisions as a Reds manager since he's been here.

He manages teams full of great players and finds the postseason every once in awhile because of the talent he has. But he lacks that something extra......namely baseball intelligence. He has no clue what to do in crucial situations. Clueless is what he is.

Reds ownership will wake up one of these days and realize it's not all the players fault, and that the leadership and decision-making stinks.

I hope the Reds are .500 at the All-Star Break if they're not going to win it, and we can get a real manager.