Day Game Again 1:05 start; Thursday 4.12.12 Reds @ Nationals

[Nasty_Boy]

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

Very good points RM.

I would have brought in Bray for the 10th,Marshall for the 11th and from the 12th on it would have been Simon. IMO, Simon is your long reliever to bring in early if the starter falters or for those long extra inning games. Just a case of Dusty not thinking through situations ahead of time.

Couldn't agree more... He worked his bullpen backwards because of the save. For the Reds to win a game like that, they have to prevent Washington from scoring. Use your best early to prevent runs and give your offense a chance, since they don't get last bat. Use Bray, use Marshall, then you can sink or swim with Simon. I'm doing my best to get my best hitters one more chance at the plate. Simon did not give them the best chance. The way Dusty has used Marshall thus far is a waste of the guy's ability and it gives valuable innings to lesser pitchers.

[Nasty_Boy]

One more question... If this were a playoff game or a must win, would Dusty have left Marshall and Bray in the pen? His options were limited, but he was worried about having Marshall to close the game. Go down using your best... Marshall was rested and could have went two innings. All of the games count and you never know if you are going to need one like this at the end of the year... My guess is this isn't the last time the Reds are in extras on the road this year. Hopefully Dusty learned something yesterday.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Nasty_Boy

If you took my last sentence as being literal, then please forgive me... I knew when I typed it that someone would say that about Cordero, because that's how Redzone operates. For that I offer my apologies... But I would bet that 95% of Cordero appearances in non save situations were just get him work. The rest, or games like today he would not have went to Cordero. He would use Cordero in tie games at home in the 9th-10th inning because there is no possible save. The only other times he went to Cordero in non save spots were in marathon games where his hand was forced.

I don't know where to look it up but in Cordero's years with the Reds, what percentage of his appearance do you think were in non save spots? Dusty manages the end of the game based on a stat... Heck, 3 weeks ago Dusty wouldn't committ to using Marshall as a closer because he couldn't go 3 days in a row. Marshall wasn't looked at as "closer material", but Madson blows out his arm and Marshall now HAS to close.

Dusty isn't the only manager to do these things, but it doesn't make me feel better... If I were Davy Johnson, I would have stuck with Clippard. He was dominant in the 8th. They way he looked, I doubt the Reds coulda scored 2 in the 9th.

I didn't have any reason not to take you literally. That's why I avoid creating sentences with absolutes when possible. There are qualifiers to use when you are using literary tools to make a point that would increase the chance of you being understood better.

As for the "save situation" argument, logically, it is possible that the chicken/egg argument is that "save situation" is also a "close game situation" and that is the basis for the decision. It is always portrayed that the manager is using "save situation" as the decision rule. It is a presumption that it is the stat driving the decision. I'd say it is the situation driving the decision. Save situation = close game.

Having watched the dynamics of 9th innings in the current era, a three run lead is very tenuous and I want whomever I've identified to pitch the 9th (if that's the bullpen pecking order system that I use) out there. I also see many managers, including Dusty, stretching it out to a 4 run lead for their closer.

[LoganBuck]

The meltdown from yesterday just came on FSN


Simon in

[LoganBuck]

Mesoraco went to the mound and was pretty animated with Simon.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by redsmetz

I'm going to copy what I wrote in the Simon thread here because I think it's pertinent to the game discussion too:

I'm not quite sure what folks really expected Baker to be able to do in this particular game situation.

Latos went only five innings. Going into the game, we knew that Chapman and Ondrusek would not be available because of previous use. LeCure pitched two innings, followed by Arredondo doing the same.

That left Simon, Bray and Marshall. The game is tied in extra innings with, conceivably, no end in sight. We have to acknowledge that fact.

Part of the problem is that we'd used the two long guys who may go long already, both for two inning stints. In a game like this, that's not surprising. Then the game gets tied. Another big problem is Bray is limited as to how much he can go. Likewise, Marshall as the closer is not a long guy.

What other option did Dusty have? Let's say he brings Bray in to face Bernardina and gets the final out? Bray can come out in the 11th and then he's done. If we've made it through that, that leaves only Marshall among the relievers. Or we go to one of our starters (not sure who was up there), but what do we do if we're going 2 to 3 or 4 or 5 innings more?

Complain about Baker all you want, but the larger issue is on one hand, Bray's inability to pitch much now and whether Simon's good enough to help this club (I'm not convinced). That's not a manager issue, that's a GM issue. I didn't see a reasonable option in this game, given that if we aren't going to score, we have to assume a game can go on forever. And then it's either Bray, Marshall or one of the starters eating innings. Even to this day, we continue to hear about Harang pitching those multiple innings in San Diego.

Use Marshall for the 10th and 11th and use Bray for the 12th and give the offense the chance to win it in the mean time. Save the long man for last and then use him for as many innings as necessary. Instead we use a guy who was fairly certain to end it by letting the other team score. The Reds big hitters were due up soon. Priority number 1 was extending the game to give them a chance.