UK Basketball 8th Edition

[New York Red]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

I think Sam Bowie was among the most talented and athletic players of his era-- before his injuries at the University of Kentucky. He could have ushered in an era (along with Arvydas Sabonis) of great-passing big men similar to Bill Walton.

All three had injuries that limited their effectiveness.

That said, the Sam Bowie who was drafted number two by the Blazers couldn't hold a candle to the Anthony Davis of today.

Both he and Mel Turpin prove my point, BTW. Both were considerd great college players. Bowie wasn't bad at all; Turpin was a product of the Joe B. Hall system. Good college player-- not all that talented. (Or at least not talented enough to carry an extra 75-100 lbs. on his 6'11" frame.)

Sam Bowie is one of my all-time favorite UK players. Melvin Turpin was a high school friend and teammate of mine, and a classmate of mine at UK for three years -- so my opinion of him goes without saying.

Having said that, neither had anywhere close to the complete skill set Anthony Davis has. Before his injuries, Bowie and Ralph Sampson were ushering in an entirely new era of big men. Their combination of length and athleticism was something we hadn't really seen much of before (other than Wilt). If not for the injuries, Bowie may have become one of the greatest big men ever, but his numerous leg problems curtailed that career. He was never the same after the first one. Turpin was good around the basket, and even had a good shot out to 15 or 16 feet. But that was pretty much the extent of his game, and he never could stay in shape after he reached the NBA.

Davis is on another level. He needs to put on some weight, which he will do, but otherwise his game is perfectly suited for the NBA. As great as he was as a college freshman, he was just scratching the surface of his potential. It might not happen immediately, but he will become a star in the NBA. The fact that he's also a fantastic person is just icing on the cake. Probably the most humble great Wildcat player I've seen. Also had a 3.7 GPA his last semester at UK. He's the complete package, no doubt.

[Assembly Hall]

Once again Scrap, I dont dispute the talent today. I started off by saying the college game is down directly for guys leaving for the NBA. How many times do I have to say it? I could care less what happens at the next level. It is the college game we are talking about. No?

[Scrap Irony]

If the college game is down, how is it down?

Skill? The numbers don't support that at all.

Coaching? Again, the best coaches in basketball history are here right now.

Team togetherness? You'll have to show me numbers on that one.

You pointed earlier to IU's great teams of the mid-70s. Not one of those teams would sniff 20 wins in today's game. Defenses are far better, athletes are more athletic, coaches are better-- the whole game is better.

[Revering4Blue]

If the college game is down, how is it down?

Well, one can certainly make the case that compared with the 90's, even though players could skip college then and head to the NBA, it is, at least from the standpoint of the number of quality contenders at the top.

Just off the top of my head, Cases in point:

1991 UNLV.

1993 Michigan.

1999 Duke

All failed to win the Championship, but can one really suggest with a straight face that any of the three would not beat the '10 Blue Devils, '11 Huskies, and have a much better chance of knocking off the '12 Wildcats than any other '12 healthy team?

Can Wildcats fans suggest with a straight face that, compared with the '12 Wildcats, the '96 Wildcats were not the superior team, awesome as Davis is/was?

It's difficult to quantify, but it's certainly debatable, no?

It's also difficult, if not impossible, to compare pre-three point shot, no shot clock era teams to present rule teams. Although, some teams from the previous era may actually benefit from today's rules--the Alcindor and Walton UCLA and Elvin Hayes/Don Chaney Houston teams come to mind.

[Assembly Hall]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

If the college game is down, how is it down?

Skill? The numbers don't support that at all.

Coaching? Again, the best coaches in basketball history are here right now.

Team togetherness? You'll have to show me numbers on that one.

You pointed earlier to IU's great teams of the mid-70s. Not one of those teams would sniff 20 wins in today's game. Defenses are far better, athletes are more athletic, coaches are better-- the whole game is better.

Dude you are so far out there I dont know what to say.

Skill? Numbers? What are you talking about?

Coaching? I imagine that John Wooden, Adolph Rupp, Bob Knight, Denny Crum, and Dean Smith would take a little exception to your comments.

Team togetherness? What the heck is that?

To say that the IU teams of 75 or 76 not sniffing 20 wins today is like saying that UK's team in 78 wouldnt win 10. Everyone of the starters on IU's 76 NCAA championship team was drafted in the 1st round.

[Assembly Hall]

Originally Posted by Revering4Blue

Well, one can certainly make the case that compared with the 90's, even though players could skip college then and head to the NBA, it is, at least from the standpoint of the number of quality contenders at the top.

Just off the top of my head, Cases in point:

1991 UNLV.

1993 Michigan.

1999 Duke

All failed to win the Championship, but can one really suggest with a straight face that any of the three would not beat the '10 Blue Devils, '11 Huskies, and have a much better chance of knocking off the '12 Wildcats than any other '12 healthy team?

Can Wildcats fans suggest with a straight face that, compared with the '12 Wildcats, the '96 Wildcats were not the superior team, awesome as Davis is/was?

It's difficult to quantify, but it's certainly debatable, no?

It's also difficult, if not impossible, to compare pre-three point shot, no shot clock era teams to present rule teams. Although, some teams from the previous era may actually benefit from today's rules--the Alcindor and Walton UCLA and Elvin Hayes/Don Chaney Houston teams come to mind.

Thanks Revering! According to Scrap's theories I would imagine the '82 UNC championship team would be the greatest college team of all-time based on the number of NBA championships they won.......after they played college basketball.

[Scrap Irony]

Why not answer my question rather than rag on my opinion?

It would go a long way to add to discussion rather than, y'know, be that guy.

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by Revering4Blue

Well, one can certainly make the case that compared with the 90's, even though players could skip college then and head to the NBA, it is, at least from the standpoint of the number of quality contenders at the top.

Just off the top of my head, Cases in point:

1991 UNLV.

1993 Michigan.

1999 Duke

All failed to win the Championship, but can one really suggest with a straight face that any of the three would not beat the '10 Blue Devils, '11 Huskies, and have a much better chance of knocking off the '12 Wildcats than any other '12 healthy team?

Can Wildcats fans suggest with a straight face that, compared with the '12 Wildcats, the '96 Wildcats were not the superior team, awesome as Davis is/was?

It's difficult to quantify, but it's certainly debatable, no?

It's also difficult, if not impossible, to compare pre-three point shot, no shot clock era teams to present rule teams. Although, some teams from the previous era may actually benefit from today's rules--the Alcindor and Walton UCLA and Elvin Hayes/Don Chaney Houston teams come to mind.

I think the '12 Kentucky team was among three extremely talented teams this season, and all three compare favorably with the UNLV, Michigan, and especially the Duke team of the '90s. I think this season's UNC squad is going to eventually be looked at as one of those that lost its title because of injuries or fate-- but that their talent level is among the best CBB has seen.

It's impossible, as you say, to quanitfy, but this year's teams were outstanding.

[RiverRat13]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

I think this season's UNC squad is going to eventually be looked at as one of those that lost its title because of injuries or fate-- but that their talent level is among the best CBB has seen.

I hate to keep talking about UNC on a UK thread, but this simply isn't so. This was the third worst offensive team of the Williams era at 1.15 points/possession. The two that were worse? 2011 and 2010. This was not a talented offensive group compared to what Roy usually has to offer. But they were really good defensively with Henson, right? They come in as just the fourth best defensive team giving up .886 points/possession. As I said and most UNC fans who watch 20-30 Carolina games a year will agree, this year's group was at best Roy's fourth best team. Heck, when I went back and checked kempom, I had forgotten how good that '07 team really was. Using analytics, I could argue that they were Roy's fifth best team at UNC. They did not shoot the ball well at all, for all of their size they did not get to the line all that well (and when they got there they didn't shoot FT very well) and despite playing the passing lanes defensively they did not turn the other team over very well.

The 2012 Tar Heels were just not that good.

[Assembly Hall]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

Why not answer my question rather than rag on my opinion?

It would go a long way to add to discussion rather than, y'know, be that guy.

I simply dont know what your questions are. My stance is the college game is down. I aint ragging on your opinion. But you keep questioning mine. I have stated my points over and over. You seem to be of the mindset of the next level. I am talking the college game. How many times do I have to say I dont care about the next level? We are talking college here. You talk about playing the best in the world. We are talking the college game here. All else is irrelevant.

[Assembly Hall]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

I think the '12 Kentucky team was among three extremely talented teams this season, and all three compare favorably with the UNLV, Michigan, and especially the Duke team of the '90s. I think this season's UNC squad is going to eventually be looked at as one of those that lost its title because of injuries or fate-- but that their talent level is among the best CBB has seen.

It's impossible, as you say, to quanitfy, but this year's teams were outstanding.

LOL..........no they werent.

[Assembly Hall]

Originally Posted by RiverRat13

I hate to keep talking about UNC on a UK thread, but this simply isn't so. This was the third worst offensive team of the Williams era at 1.15 points/possession. The two that were worse? 2011 and 2010. This was not a talented offensive group compared to what Roy usually has to offer. But they were really good defensively with Henson, right? They come in as just the fourth best defensive team giving up .886 points/possession. As I said and most UNC fans who watch 20-30 Carolina games a year will agree, this year's group was at best Roy's fourth best team. Heck, when I went back and checked kempom, I had forgotten how good that '07 team really was. Using analytics, I could argue that they were Roy's fifth best team at UNC. They did not shoot the ball well at all, for all of their size they did not get to the line all that well (and when they got there they didn't shoot FT very well) and despite playing the passing lanes defensively they did not turn the other team over very well.

The 2012 Tar Heels were just not that good.

RiverRat.......your points are well taken by this IU fan. And I agree completely. But the "Bible" of college basketball was wrote in Lexington. Us on this site must accept that. Anthony Davis is a stud. Terrence Jones is the next coming of Dennis Rodman. Jeff Teague is like Mark Jackson. MKG is Michael Jordan re-incarnated due to some Buddhist ritual. The college game is at its all time high because of UK. We aint got a chance. But the start of a new season will change that. The game will once again be down, but enjoyable and hopefully the basketball GODS will cast a message. THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION ANY UK'S FANS OPINION. I did my best, but I guess I will be cast below. I am done on this topic and will try to focus on the Reds.....if I can get the bluriness out of my eyes.

[Revering4Blue]

Amile Jefferson's decision to go to Duke means Kentucky will go after Montrezl Harrell and then likely close 2012 recruiting

https://twitter.com/#!/KySportsRadio...89949918998528]

[New York Red]

Originally Posted by Assembly Hall

RiverRat.......your points are well taken by this IU fan. And I agree completely. But the "Bible" of college basketball was wrote in Lexington. Us on this site must accept that. Anthony Davis is a stud. Terrence Jones is the next coming of Dennis Rodman. Jeff Teague is like Mark Jackson. MKG is Michael Jordan re-incarnated due to some Buddhist ritual. The college game is at its all time high because of UK. We aint got a chance. But the start of a new season will change that. The game will once again be down, but enjoyable and hopefully the basketball GODS will cast a message. THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION ANY UK'S FANS OPINION. I did my best, but I guess I will be cast below. I am done on this topic and will try to focus on the Reds.....if I can get the bluriness out of my eyes.

Good stuff, haha.

However, most of what you said is inaccurate. Yes, Davis is a stud. Yes, the "Bible" of college basketball was written in Lexington. But the rest? I have never seen a UK fan make any of those claims. Seriously, you're an IU fan posting in a UK thread. You can't really expect your opinions to be 100% accepted as fact.

[Assembly Hall]

Originally Posted by New York Red

Good stuff, haha.

However, most of what you said is inaccurate. Yes, Davis is a stud. Yes, the "Bible" of college basketball was written in Lexington. But the rest? I have never seen a UK fan make any of those claims. Seriously, you're an IU fan posting in a UK thread. You can't really expect your opinions to be 100% accepted as fact.

LOL.........it was tongue in cheek. I will just agree to disagree with you and Scrap and a couple others. I enjoyed the discussions and feedback.