Tony Cingrani #12 on the BA Hot Sheet this week

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by powersackers

Curious (Read Noob). What is a "secondary pitch" and what defines a breaking ball?

A change up breaks or at least dips at times or is it supposed to be straight, just slower with same arm action as FB? Fastballs and curve balls I can ID fine. Changeups too typically because they are "off speed".


Honestly I think Thom Brennaman just has me seriously confused as anything not a FB is a breaking ball to him I think.

Technically, all pitches 'break' downward. Gravity makes that happen unless you are throwing submariner. A secondary pitch is anything not a fastball.

Change ups aren't straight, though they generally don't move much more than one's fastball, they sink an extra 2-3 inches and have 2-3 inches of extra run, on average.

A breaking ball is a curve or slider (or slurve).

[powersackers]

Thanks Doug.

[UCBrownsfan]

Now at 97 IP in the minors with 145 K's, and 16 BB's, a whip around .8, an ERA around 1.25

[cincyinco]

Originally Posted by UCBrownsfan

Now at 97 IP in the minors with 145 K's, and 16 BB's, a whip around .8, an ERA around 1.25

[RED VAN HOT]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Technically, all pitches 'break' downward. Gravity makes that happen unless you are throwing submariner. A secondary pitch is anything not a fastball.

Change ups aren't straight, though they generally don't move much more than one's fastball, they sink an extra 2-3 inches and have 2-3 inches of extra run, on average.

A breaking ball is a curve or slider (or slurve).

While we are on this subject, can you differentiate between a cut FB (or cutter), a screwball, and a split finger pitch. It seems to me that everyone throws a cutter these days, while the other two terms are seldom used anymore.

[RedlegJake]

A cutter is a held like a four seam fastball but a bit off center in the fingers and breaks away from the hitter (RH pitcher vs RH batter) as it reaches the plate. Its a fastball really but with a slider action. It's late "cut" and high velocity makes it murder on hitters. And if you're the unlucky off handed batter facing the pitcher using it, the pitch can literally crack your bat right in your hands.

A screwball is thrown with a grip similar to a curve, usually by lefties, with a reverse break of the wrist to the curve. Carl Hubbell threw it so often it permanently turned his forearm inward even after his retirement. Because of the ligament structure of the forearm's bones the reverse pronation is extremely hard on the arm and that's why it is rarely used. It's very effective but it's an invitation to arm problems, too.

The split finger fastball is held between the fingers but the fingers are spread and snapped down across the ball and the forearm pushed forward producing a nasty sudden drop at the plate. Clemens used it late in his career. It was taught by pitching coach Roger Craig who thought it would help pitchers with arm problems but there is a lot of back and forth about that. Some say it isn't any worse than any other pitch and some say its really tough on pitchers arms. It's nasty but fairly difficult to learn to throw correctly. I think the reason its seldom used anymore is that the debate has pretty much come down on the side of it damaging arms althogh Bruce Sutter used it for most of his career.

[RedlegJake]

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[RED VAN HOT]

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like both a cutter and screwball are similar in terms of reverse break. The difference being that a cutter is delivered as a fastball and has a later, sharp, but moderate lateral movement, while the slower screwball acts more like a curve that breaks in the unexpected direction.

I also recall the controversy concerning Roger Craig when he managed the Giants. I seem to remember his pitchers having great but short careers. When I first saw Sutter pitch I was amazed at the sudden drop. Trevor Hoffman's changeup also had a sudden, late drop. These days velocity is most valued in closers, but there is something to be said for the sharp downward breaking pitches.

[Kc61]

Cingrani got mention again in the BA hot sheet, was in the team photo as they say.

[*BaseClogger*]

Isn't the screwball technically considered a breaking ball, despite its reverse movement, because it has the same wrist snapping motion?

[RedlegJake]

The well thrown screwball is much slower than a cutter with a wider big downward break, more akin to a reverse curve which is what is closer to what it actually is. The cutter is much closer to an extremely hard slider with a sharper flatter break. Think slider with no loss in velocity whatever and you basically have a cutter. Also the screwball, because you break your wrist inward, is much harder to keep your elbow straight and not twist it - which if you've pitched, you know leads to big problems.