Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by fisch11

"I asked assist gm dick Williams why team did not ask for MRI when Votto didn't. Said collective bargaining agreement and players union take player privacy with health issues seriously, and that Votto never thought it was that serious until last few days."

Basically from that I gather that Joey would have had to thought he was injured seriously enough to consent to an MRI if it was thought to be necessary. Players union frowns upon teams asking first unless warranted.

I can see this point, but it's not as if we are asking the Reds to forciblily tie down Joey and force him to get an MRI. I wish the Reds were more proactive with all their players. If they think there might be something wrong with the knee, why not encourage the player to get it checked right away?

It's not as if this is an isolated incident. This has happened almost every year since Doc Hollywood has come here. I'd rather have a doctor more focused on urgency than one that is focused on being buddies with the players and collecting autographed pictures for his office..

Surely the doctor is allowed to strongly suggest an MRI because he suspects there may be damage in the knee.. Isn't that what doctors are there for? Sure, the player can still refuse at that point, but I think most players would agree to get it checked if the doctor recommended it.

[gonelong]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

I can see this point, but it's not as if we are asking the Reds to forciblily tie down Joey and force him to get an MRI. I wish the Reds were more proactive with all their players. If they think there might be something wrong with the knee, why not encourage the player to get it checked right away?

It's not as if this is an isolated incident. This has happened almost every year since Doc Hollywood has come here. I'd rather have a doctor more focused on urgency than one that is focused on being buddies with the players and collecting autographed pictures for his office.

Surely the doctor is allowed to strongly suggest an MRI because he suspects there may be damage in the knee.. Isn't that what doctors are there for? Sure, the player can still refuse at that point, but I think most players would agree to get it checked if the doctor recommended it.

How often does your Doctor come to your house and strongly suggest procedures to you? I'd guess you get most of your medical advice when you go the to Dr. and ask for it.

I suspect Kremcheck doesn't seek out the players to offer unsolicited advice, he is likely restricted to providing advice when asked for it.

You also want to foster a workplace in which people want to be there. I'd not look to kindly on an organization that pressured me into things I wasn't interested in.

GL

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by gonelong

How often does your Doctor come to your house and strongly suggest procedures to you? I'd guess you get most of your medical advice when you go the to Dr. and ask for it.

I suspect Kremcheck doesn't seek out the players to offer unsolicited advice, he is likely restricted to providing advice when asked for it.

You also want to foster a workplace in which people want to be there. I'd not look to kindly on an organization that pressured me into things I wasn't interested in.

GL

Well, it's a little bit different situation here.
Votto is getting paid 25 million to perform a job.. If he has an injury that prevents him from performing that job and does not seek treatment, that's a little bit different than if I have a cold and decide not to go to the doctor.

If I was a truck driver, and needed glasses, but refused to do so and thus endangered people on the road, would that be ok? Yes, I know it's a mistake to post analogies on RZ, and this is not a perfect one..

The knee obviously hurt Votto enough for him to notice and effect him.

If this was an isolated incident, I would not be making a big deal over this, but look at Doc's history with this franchise.. Kearns had a "blister" that ended up being hand surgery.. he was continally allowed to play with it..
Edmunds has criticized Doc. Bowden criticized Doc. Doc certainly bungled Jr's treatments many times..

People want to claim it's ok for Doc to lie to us because of Hippa.. Well, if that's the case, why not just say Kearns is out with an undisclosed injury? Why lie about it? Oh yea, becauase the Reds (for whatever reason) always like to publicly understate injuries.. Not sure if that is Doc Hollywood or someone above him, but it always happens.
Frankly, I am really scared about Cueto now.. I hope it's nothing, but I am not assured by the Reds' announcement.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Well, it's a little bit different situation here.
Votto is getting paid 25 million to perform a job.. If he has an injury that prevents him from performing that job and does not seek treatment, that's a little bit different than if I have a cold and decide not to go to the doctor.

If I was a truck driver, and needed glasses, but refused to do so and thus endangered people on the road, would that be ok? Yes, I know it's a mistake to post analogies on RZ, and this is not a perfect one..

The knee obviously hurt Votto enough for him to notice and effect him.

If this was an isolated incident, I would not be making a big deal over this, but look at Doc's history with this franchise.. Kearns had a "blister" that ended up being hand surgery.. he was continally allowed to play with it..
Edmunds has criticized Doc. Bowden criticized Doc. Doc certainly bungled Jr's treatments many times..

People want to claim it's ok for Doc to lie to us because of Hippa.. Well, if that's the case, why not just say Kearns is out with an undisclosed injury? Why lie about it? Oh yea, becauase the Reds (for whatever reason) always like to publicly understate injuries.. Not sure if that is Doc Hollywood or someone above him, but it always happens.
Frankly, I am really scared about Cueto now.. I hope it's nothing, but I am not assured by the Reds' announcement.

So over the course of 19 years, and 4 GM's, there's a pattern that they "always" lie to us, based on what exactly.

What did Doc "lie" about anyway?

I'm not sure the Reds always like to publicly understate injuries, rather, I'd guess you remember the ones they did and forget the times they didn't.

Basically your proof boils down to Edmonds criticized Kremcheck, Bowden criticized him 10 years prior, and he "bungled" Jr's injuries in your opinion.

I'd think there are very few doctors who have not been criticized twice in 20 years.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by Kc61

Hopefully, what the Reds will do now, is come up with a game plan for winning over the next month without Votto.

IMO this means bringing up a lefty or switch hitter from AAA, probably Henry Rodriguez. Have Frazier play every day at first. Have Rodriguez spell Rolen occasionally at third to add another left handed bat to the lineup.

Since most days the Reds will have only one lefty, Bruce, it probably means hitting him cleanup. It also means focusing on the batting order with fresh eyes, as the Reds will need to build runs without Votto. I won't get into a batting order discussion here, they are all over the site, but a renewed focus is required.

It means trying, if possible, to expedite the quest for a lead off bat who hits righty pitching and potentially a lefty bench bat. I wouldn't massively overpay to rush the trades, but I would be actively looking. Maybe the lefty bench bat could be acquired sooner rather than later.

Finally, aside from the pitchers, I think Rolen and Phillips have to step up and lead the ballclub. They are two well established veteran players. They need to make sure the team plays with the same focus and enthusiasm and doesn't go into a funk over this.

Reds can get out of this situation ok, but they need to recognize the big loss (although for a short time) and need to organize to succeed in Votto's absence.

KC, thanks for this fantastic outline with your thoughts. That's what struck me yesterday; let's see what this club is made of. It's time for more players to step up their game and take up the slack. Frankly as we've had our various discussions over recent months, I kept thinking that if this club would just hit a little bit more with runners on, it would be an absolute juggernaut.

[westofyou]

People want to claim it's ok for Doc to lie to us because of Hippa.

It's the law, all patients are ensured confidentiality when it comes to their health and the public.

Bellyache all you want, but it is the law and it's a strong freaking law that whenever it is broken ushers in numerous folks with the compliance departments and HR.

Even if the one it happens to makes 1 zillion dollars a year

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

So over the course of 19 years, and 4 GM's, there's a pattern that they "always" lie to us, based on what exactly.

What did Doc "lie" about anyway?
.

How about Kearns' blister?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/archi...p/t-43305.html

7/2/2004 - Surgery to remove bone spur, scar tissue, and lesion from right thumb
6/8/2004 - 8/23/2004 - DL'd with open sore on right thumb (blood blister suffered 8/10)

That was the timeline.

Kearns was allowed to play with the bone spur for quite awhile before the Reds finally decided to operate on it.
I am pretty confident that Doc knew that there was more than just a blister going on, but that's what he told us.. It's kind of hard to dig up detailed info, since this happened in 2004.
But that's the quickest example of Doc lying to us about an injury.

[reds44]

Every team in sports hides injuries. Every. single. one.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by westofyou

It's the law, all patients are ensured confidentiality when it comes to their health and the public.

Bellyache all you want, but it is the law and it's a strong freaking law that whenever it is broken ushers in numerous folks with the compliance departments and HR.

Even if the one it happens to makes 1 zillion dollars a year

Ok, if it's the law, why lie about the injury?
Why not just say "Kearns is being placed on the DL. We can not disclose details, we expect him to be back in X weeks".
Why lie about it?
Why say it is a blister when it is obviously something more serious.

I'm not saying I have the right to know about injury specifics. I don't want to be lied to about it. But Doc wanted to be on the radio and gab.. so he fed us wrong information.

Back to the main topic.. It sure would've been nice if someone offered Votto some guidance on getting the MRI before the AS break.. He would've missed 4fewer games that actually count. It just seems like a pretty big risk for Doc to stick his head in the sand and wait for Votto to ask for help.. That's all I am saying..

[Johnny Footstool]

IMO, this is the most likely scenario: Votto told the team his knee was a little sore, but he wanted to try to play through it. He gave it *some* rest over the ASB (not full rest, but more than usual), played against the Cardinals, and then realized it was getting worse, so at that point, he told the doc. After that, the team acted pretty quickly in getting him an MRI and setting up surgery.

[MikeS21]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Well, it's a little bit different situation here.
Votto is getting paid 25 million to perform a job.. If he has an injury that prevents him from performing that job and does not seek treatment, that's a little bit different than if I have a cold and decide not to go to the doctor.

If I was a truck driver, and needed glasses, but refused to do so and thus endangered people on the road, would that be ok? Yes, I know it's a mistake to post analogies on RZ, and this is not a perfect one..

The knee obviously hurt Votto enough for him to notice and effect him.

If this was an isolated incident, I would not be making a big deal over this, but look at Doc's history with this franchise.. Kearns had a "blister" that ended up being hand surgery.. he was continally allowed to play with it..
Edmunds has criticized Doc. Bowden criticized Doc. Doc certainly bungled Jr's treatments many times..

People want to claim it's ok for Doc to lie to us because of Hippa.. Well, if that's the case, why not just say Kearns is out with an undisclosed injury? Why lie about it? Oh yea, becauase the Reds (for whatever reason) always like to publicly understate injuries.. Not sure if that is Doc Hollywood or someone above him, but it always happens.
Frankly, I am really scared about Cueto now.. I hope it's nothing, but I am not assured by the Reds' announcement.

How is any of this Doc Krencheck's fault?

In Votto's opinion, it was minor, and in two separate articles Votto was quoted (while in Los Angeles) as saying it was "minor" and "improving." Why run and get an MRI for something perceived as "minor" and "improving?" Votto was also quoted as saying, "There is no structural damage." (I'm not sure how he knew that without an MRI?) He also said it was up to "Paul Lessing (the trainer) and Dusty" when he could be cleared to play. It sounds as if Votto and Lessing neither one felt it was anything serious for the first week or so. It is quite possible Kremcheck never even examined Votto until the trainer felt it necessary.

My guess is, they thought the knee would clear up by the weekend, and when it didn't, that's when the meeting of the minds came together.

I've heard all the Kremcheck complaints about Kearns, Edmunds, Bowden, and Junior. I personally know a young man who is an intern in Dr. Kremcheck's office. Sports franchises in the MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, and even schools from the NCAA continue to consult with Dr. Kremcheck. Tennis players, golfers, and Olympians consult with Kremcheck. Even some of the more well known surgeons around the country will send patients to Dr. Kremcheck for second opinions. Obviously, when I press my friend for specifics, he clams up due to confidentiality concerns. But he also said that other "VIP's" other than athletes come for treatment.

My point is, that there is a huge part of the medical community who see Kremcheck as one of the top doctors in the field of orthopedics. I'm sure you will find a crank or two who will disagree, but the vast majority see him as extremely competent.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Ok, if it's the law, why lie about the injury?
Why not just say "Kearns is being placed on the DL. We can not disclose details, we expect him to be back in X weeks".
Why lie about it?
Why say it is a blister when it is obviously something more serious.

I'm not saying I have the right to know about injury specifics. I don't want to be lied to about it. But Doc wanted to be on the radio and gab.. so he fed us wrong information.

Back to the main topic.. It sure would've been nice if someone offered Votto some guidance on getting the MRI before the AS break.. He would've missed 4fewer games that actually count. It just seems like a pretty big risk for Doc to stick his head in the sand and wait for Votto to ask for help.. That's all I am saying..

You have NO rights, it does not matter to your life. It's a personal matter between the injured and the medical staff.

As far as lies, who gives a rats arse?

If you are betting on the games then maybe it matters, otherwise it's a game played by a real live human who has nothing in the world that they owe the fans when it comes to their health.

[757690]

Originally Posted by reds44

Every team in sports hides injuries. Every. single. one.

It's in their best interests most of the time to hide them, and very little benefit to be completely forthcoming about them.

[Sea Ray]

7/2/2004 - Surgery to remove bone spur, scar tissue, and lesion from right thumb
6/8/2004 - 8/23/2004 - DL'd with open sore on right thumb (blood blister suffered 8/10)

According to that the blood blister happened after the surgery

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

How about Kearns' blister?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/archi...p/t-43305.html



That was the timeline.

Kearns was allowed to play with the bone spur for quite awhile before the Reds finally decided to operate on it.
I am pretty confident that Doc knew that there was more than just a blister going on, but that's what he told us.. It's kind of hard to dig up detailed info, since this happened in 2004.
But that's the quickest example of Doc lying to us about an injury.

Oddly enough, being "pretty sure" that someone knew something was different than what he was stating is pretty much not proof of it being a recurring instance.

I'm going to guess that no doctor can perfectly evaluate every injury, and somethings that look severe may not be and some things that look minor may be severe.

So he may have misevaluated Kearn's injury, or he may have been lying. Heck, it may not have even been caused by poor care, but rather evaluated the evidence to the best of his ability and changed diagnoses as more facts became available.
Regardless, we'll never know, and imo it's foolish to speculate and even more foolish to rely on that speculation as proof that an otherwise well respected doctor is dishonest, incompetent, or both.