Adam Eaton

[Vottomatic]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Your dad and grandpa were wrong. Players will tell you that. I have a friend who is a scout. He is in his early 50's. When he was younger, well before he was scouting, he talked with Waite Hoyte, who played in the Majors, then of course broadcast games for a long time after his playing days were done. Hoye talked about how when he played that most pitchers were topping out at 85 MPH by the time August rolled around because of how often they were used and they simply didn't have any gas left. He also noted that as time went on that guys did throw a little bit harder in general than the guys before them.

I remember being younger, watching games on ESPN. They had radar guns. They didn't like up like they do now. Yes, some guys could do what a lot of guys can no, but most couldn't. Scouting still holds onto the idea that 89 MPH is average for a lefty and 90 is average for a righty. Really? When a guy throws 90 as a RHP these days he is a soft tosser, like Mike Leake.

You're always disrespecting other generations. I'm just saying I'd be careful about it because it comes across as obvious disrespect and condescending to us old timers.

You'll never convince me that Kobe or Lebron are better than Jordan was. Saw it with my own eyes. And I saw plenty of pitchers hitting in the mid-90's back in the 70's and 80's. It's not like suddenly every pitcher became superman and can throw 100+.

But we'll just agree to disagree.

Edit: By the way, my next door neighbor growing up pitched in the minors for a bunch of years. He met his wife after she dated Jim O'Toole. I've heard plenty of stories that again would disagree with some of your comments. But we can just agree to disagree.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Vottomatic

You're always disrespecting other generations. I'm just saying I'd be careful about it because it comes across as obvious disrespect and condescending to us old timers.

You'll never convince me that Kobe or Lebron are better than Jordan was. Saw it with my own eyes. And I saw plenty of pitchers hitting in the mid-90's back in the 70's and 80's. It's not like suddenly every pitcher became superman and can throw 100+.

But we'll just agree to disagree.

Edit: By the way, my next door neighbor growing up pitched in the minors for a bunch of years. He met his wife after she dated Jim O'Toole. I've heard plenty of stories that again would disagree with some of your comments. But we can just agree to disagree.

Kobe and LeBron might not be better than Jordan. But the #3 guy on every team now is better than the #3 guy on every team then. Simply looking at superstars doesn't really work. Those guys were the freaks among freaks. Look at the average 'freak' and they simply aren't as physically gifted as the average 'freak' in the next generation. It is just evolution due to training and better nutrition. That isn't disrespect, it is just a fact. Burying your head in the sand doesn't make it different.

[camisadelgolf]

Vottomatic, do you have any data to back up what you're saying? The radar guns disagree with you.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

That isn't disrespect, it is just a fact. Burying your head in the sand doesn't make it different.

#Respectful or not?

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Kobe and LeBron might not be better than Jordan. But the #3 guy on every team now is better than the #3 guy on every team then. Simply looking at superstars doesn't really work. Those guys were the freaks among freaks. Look at the average 'freak' and they simply aren't as physically gifted as the average 'freak' in the next generation. It is just evolution due to training and better nutrition. That isn't disrespect, it is just a fact. Burying your head in the sand doesn't make it different.

I don't think people like calling these facts.

They aren't. It is a very well educated hypothesis that is logical.

But it wont be fact until we actually can put Jay Bruce back in time and play in the 1980's. Because we can't, this will never be a 100% factual discussion. At the same time, I think the logic present and the sprinter metaphors ou have provided are a good foundation for an argument, but if he disagrees, he has every right to, as again, we will never be able to line these guys up at the same time.

[RedlegJake]

You'll never convince me Ryne Duren and Sandy Koufax and Jim Maloney didn't throw as fast as these guys do today. Even Cy Young and Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson. However, that said, I agree that the level of the average player has risen in each generation in terms of athleticism. I disagree that being able to slap hits is that much harder because guys throw faster. Sure - guys aren't going to hit .400 again but that doesn't mean that choking up and letting the pitcher deliver the power while you control the bat rather than swinging as hard as you can from the knob end won't work. Matty Alou, Rod Carew and Pete Rose were just a generation past and guys were throwing very nearly as hard as they do now - and relief specialists were being used. It isn't because of pitchers that slap hitters, stealing, and Alou type hitters went out of style - it was because of the steroids era! Now, more and more guys are hitting 100 on the gun. Once that becomes fairly common - maybe ten or twenty years - I don't know if anyone will be hitting but they'll probably make another rule change to help hitters then. Right now the balance is about perfect. If it gets any lower scoring then the fans will start going away. The running game, the slap hitters, the station to station game will become important again BECAUSE pitchers become dominant, Doug, not the other way around. Anyway - you will disagree but we'll just have to wait a few seasons to see how this unfolds. I believe pitchers are going to be more and more dominant and hitters are going to go more and more to running, small ball, get on base singes guys and a couple sluggers in the middle because there are only going to be a few guys really capable of hitting for average and power as pitching dominates.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by RedlegJake

You'll never convince me Ryne Duren and Sandy Koufax and Jim Maloney didn't throw as fast as these guys do today. Even Cy Young and Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson. However, that said, I agree that the level of the average player has risen in each generation in terms of athleticism. I disagree that being able to slap hits is that much harder because guys throw faster. Sure - guys aren't going to hit .400 again but that doesn't mean that choking up and letting the pitcher deliver the power while you control the bat rather than swinging as hard as you can from the knob end won't work. Matty Alou, Rod Carew and Pete Rose were just a generation past and guys were throwing very nearly as hard as they do now - and relief specialists were being used. It isn't because of pitchers that slap hitters, stealing, and Alou type hitters went out of style - it was because of the steroids era! Now, more and more guys are hitting 100 on the gun. Once that becomes fairly common - maybe ten or twenty years - I don't know if anyone will be hitting but they'll probably make another rule change to help hitters then. Right now the balance is about perfect. If it gets any lower scoring then the fans will start going away. The running game, the slap hitters, the station to station game will become important again BECAUSE pitchers become dominant, Doug, not the other way around. Anyway - you will disagree but we'll just have to wait a few seasons to see how this unfolds. I believe pitchers are going to be more and more dominant and hitters are going to go more and more to running, small ball, get on base singes guys and a couple sluggers in the middle because there are only going to be a few guys really capable of hitting for average and power as pitching dominates.

The pitcher delivering the power is a myth. The same bat speed on a 60 and 65 MPH pitch is going to add just 5 feet further to the ball. But a bat speed increase of 5 MPH on a 60 MPH pitch is going to add 25 feet to the ball.

[camisadelgolf]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[RedlegJake]

LOL...thats the second time in a debate you've shown me that link camisa - are you trying to tell me I'm an old guy set in his ways?

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by RedlegJake

LOL...thats the second time in a debate you've shown me that link camisa - are you trying to tell me I'm an old guy set in his ways?

A little bit. It's good to have examples for your argument, but sometimes they're more the exception than the rule. Players are throwing harder, and there's plenty of data to support that. However, that isn't meant to say that there haven't been players who threw as hard or harder than players do today.

[Vottomatic]

I'll give that maybe there are more guys throwing harder. But it doesn't mean that alot of guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's weren't throwing that hard.

I just think every young guy tends to discard previous generations like they weren't as good and I get tired of hearing it over and over. It's very disrespectful.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by Vottomatic

I'll give that maybe there are more guys throwing harder. But it doesn't mean that alot of guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's weren't throwing that hard.

I just think every young guy tends to discard previous generations like they weren't as good and I get tired of hearing it over and over. It's very disrespectful.

I don't think anyone said people back in the '80s and earlier weren't throwing that hard. Nolan Ryan pitched in the '60s for crying out loud. But on the whole, I don't think there's any denying that the average Major League pitcher throws harder than ever.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Vottomatic

I'll give that maybe there are more guys throwing harder. But it doesn't mean that alot of guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's weren't throwing that hard.

I just think every young guy tends to discard previous generations like they weren't as good and I get tired of hearing it over and over. It's very disrespectful.

And in general, they are right, at least when it comes to athletics. We are bigger, faster, quicker and stronger as a whole today than we have ever been before. And we keep getting more of those things with each generation. It isn't disrespectful, it is simply science at work. We have better supplements, training equipment and training activities that makes us better at those things than ever before (as a whole).

[Ohayou]

Goodness me, this is not a question of skill. It's called training, nutrition and equipment. That is what separates today's athletes from previous generations.

[RedlegJake]

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

A little bit. It's good to have examples for your argument, but sometimes they're more the exception than the rule. Players are throwing harder, and there's plenty of data to support that. However, that isn't meant to say that there haven't been players who threw as hard or harder than players do today.

But Camisa - I agreed with that 100% if you'll re-read my post. I said the generations as a whole get faster and stronger- but there were always exceptional athletes who could cross generations and play in any time period. We are reaching a point where that might not be true for the earliest eras any longer. Not totally, but almost. I mean would George Wright still be a superior athlete if he was competing today? I tend to think he would be fairly average if that good. In the 1860s he was the epitome of an athlete. I don;t disagree with Doug at all. I just think a single generation isn't as big a difference overall as he seems to think - we disagree more in degree than substance.