Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by RedlegJake

I think its an overpay because I've seen Broxton pitch this season - he isn't that good fellas. Really, his best stuff was in his Dodger years. The old smoking fastball is gone. He throws a "heavy" (sinking) fastball now that does get groundballs, but his control is spotty at best. It's very Arredondo like. That 3.53 average isn't level - like averaged out 3 and half per nine. It's very much 3 or 4 in a row on off nights and then a good night. So you have good Jonathan and bad Jonathan and you never know which one you'll get. Consistency is the big issue. I'd say 2 out of 3 times he'll get the job done easy and then he'll scare the daylights out of you but still get it done and then he'll just barf all over himself the next time. He still does have a flash of that old fire once in a while when he reaches for it but it comes at a price -overthrowing - and he's as likely to get hammered as strike a guy out. He hasn't been horrible at all, just inconsistent enough to be unreliable. Is he getting stronger? Didn't seem so to me but then I don't see him every game either. I watch maybe half as many Royals as Reds games. I don't hate the trade but losing 2 prospects for 2 months of Broxton seems an overpay to me. Now, if he gets a big out or two in the playoffs I'll love it and it will be worth every game Donnie Joseph ever pitches for Kansas City.

This description kind of resembles Coco.

[edabbs44]

I am down with this trade. Upgrading the pen is always welcome and I am done with the days of getting fired up because they dealt a lottery ticket type reliever. This team is different now. This is a move that a winning ball club makes. I know we don't have a lot of experience with these kind of trades, but we should get used to it.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Fine you drew me in. But what about when they do? If you don't grumble now how can you justify grumbling in hindsight?

I am just over 30 years old. It took half my life -- from the time I was 15 to the time I was 30 -- to see the Reds back in the playoffs.

Personally, I hate that kind of a drought. So if the Reds are in a position to own the league's best record and the offense is that they keep overpaying to give themselves a shot at a World Series, I personally would rather not grumble at all. I'm not saying there aren't prospects I like, nor have the Reds not parted with a few guys I didn't want to see them part with, but I like the guys they're getting back and as such, they're in a position to make noise in the postseason. Instead of grumbling, I'll find the nearest rooftop to shout, 'hallelujah.'

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Screwball

Do players still receive the same performance boost in switching from the American League to the National League that they used to? I.e., is it reasonable to expect Brox's numbers to improve simply because he's now facing NL lineups rather than superior AL hitting?

BTW, honest questions. I don't have a preconceived answer.

I don't know the answer, but I imagine there should be some slight improvement. There of course is no DH here. As a reliever he will not face the pitcher too often, but generally a DH>Pinch Hitter.

[Vottomatic]

All this fascination with K's astounds me. Got a name for you: Johnny Cueto

Broxton may not K people like he used to. But he induces groundballs. So does Cueto. Cueto leads the NL in least HR/9 (last time I checked). Broxton doesn't give up HR's much either.

There's more than one way to get an out. After a K, I prefer a groundball.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Because pitchers who don't strike guys out tend to give up hits. When you couple that with a guy who isn't exactly able to throw strikes, he is now giving up hits and walks. That isn't good.

I understand where you're coming from but I don't see a guy who's "giving up walks". He walked two in the month of July and hasn't walked more than two in any outting this year.

I'm not expecting the pre shoulder woes Brox but I do think he's an upgrade over any RH pitcher we have in our pen now.

That said, I do think we overpaid for him

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Vottomatic

All this fascination with K's astounds me. Got a name for you: Johnny Cueto

Broxton may not K people like he used to. But he induces groundballs. So does Cueto. Cueto leads the NL in HR/9 (last time I checked). Broxton doesn't give up HR's much either.

There's more than one way to get an out. After a K, I prefer a groundball.

Johnny Cueto walks HALF as many people as Broxton. He also strikes out more guys than Broxton.

Groundballs are good. But they are incredibly inferior in terms of value to a pitcher than walks and strikeouts.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

I understand where you're coming from but I don't see a guy who's "giving up walks". He walked two in the month of July and hasn't walked more than two in any outting this year.

I'm not expecting the pre shoulder woes Brox but I do think he's an upgrade over any RH pitcher we have in our pen now.

That said, I do think we overpaid for him

He walks 3.5 hitters per 9 innings this year. That isn't really good. It isn't terrible, but it isn't good.

As a reliever, he probably shouldn't have more than 2 walks in any game this year. As for July, sure, he has walked 2. He has also only struck out 2. He has all of 5 innings in July.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

I am just over 30 years old. It took half my life -- from the time I was 15 to the time I was 30 -- to see the Reds back in the playoffs.

Personally, I hate that kind of a drought. So if the Reds are in a position to own the league's best record and the offense is that they keep overpaying to give themselves a shot at a World Series, I personally would rather not grumble at all. I'm not saying there aren't prospects I like, nor have the Reds not parted with a few guys I didn't want to see them part with, but I like the guys they're getting back and as such, they're in a position to make noise in the postseason. Instead of grumbling, I'll find the nearest rooftop to shout, 'hallelujah.'

I think part of the reason I am less than thrilled about the deal is because we didn't get what we needed yet we dealt off 2 of arguably our top 10 prospects for a guy who has any sizable question marks. Now don't get me wrong I felt like we could use a high leverage RHRP but golly they couldn't even acquire a decent LH bat for the bench? I'm sure Miami would have parted with Gregg Dobbs for a little bit of nothing, they gave up Hanley for less than what we gave for Broxton. Just annoyed that this went down like this.

Let me stress the word annoyed not angry or on the bridge.

[Roy Tucker]

I like to think I know a lot about baseball, but I've come around to the opinion that the GMs and teams involved know more about the players than I do.

I've got my opinions and all, but talent going out in trades is like thinking about in-the-past girlfriends. Their potential seemed endless at the time, but then when I see them on Facebook now, I think I ended up making the right decision.

I won't say Broxton will be lights-out, but he'll be better than Ondrusek. And if Walt's scouts say he's getting stronger, then I'm willing to see what he's got before I pass judgement.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I think part of the reason I am less than thrilled about the deal is because we didn't get what we needed yet we dealt off 2 of arguably our top 10 prospects for a guy who has any sizable question marks. Now don't get me wrong I felt like we could use a high leverage RHRP but golly they couldn't even acquire a decent LH bat for the bench? I'm sure Miami would have parted with Gregg Dobbs for a little bit of nothing, they gave up Hanley for less than what we gave for Broxton. Just annoyed that this went down like this.

I don't think much of Sulbaran, personally. Joseph is very talented but still something of an enigma. That said, I've always felt guys like Joseph and Boxberger are highly replaceable. You can find quality 2-pitch pitchers with good velocity and a plus second pitch to be a highly-effective reliever, so I'll never stress the loss of guys like that.

Heck, look at the Reds' pen this year. Guys like Arredondo, Simon, Hoover all came pretty cheap. Masset was not necessarily a throw-in, but he was a spare part included in a deal for an aging outfielder.

Hanley's deal was a different situation. The Marlins were eager to get rid of him because of his baggage. While the Reds gave up more for Broxton than Hanley, the Cardinals also surrendered one of their best prospects for a lesser reliever than Broxton.

I am disappointed the Reds didn't address the leadoff situation. While I'm not necessarily outright adamant about replacing Stubbs, it's the only sensible place to upgrade and find a high-OBP guy at the top of the order. Span would have made a ton of sense for many different reasons. Nonetheless, what's done is done. I like this better than doing nothing, even if doing nothing wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world.

[corkedbat]

I'm hoping Broxton slides in as the RH 8th inning guy alongside Marshall from the left side and all the remaining relievers move down a notch. I think that can improve the pen in itself. I think that it also gives Dusty another option when Aroldis has had to go two or three days in a row and there's a save opportunity.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by Screwball

Do players still receive the same performance boost in switching from the American League to the National League that they used to? I.e., is it reasonable to expect Brox's numbers to improve simply because he's now facing NL lineups rather than superior AL hitting?

BTW, honest questions. I don't have a preconceived answer.

Broxton likely won't get to face many pitchers.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp

I don't think much of Sulbaran, personally. Joseph is very talented but still something of an enigma. That said, I've always felt guys like Joseph and Boxberger are highly replaceable. You can find quality 2-pitch pitchers with good velocity and a plus second pitch to be a highly-effective reliever, so I'll never stress the loss of guys like that.
.

So why trade two guys who fit that profile - Sulbaran (95 MPH FB and a plus curve) and Joseph (93 MPH FB and a plus slider) - for one of those guys? Because he used to be really good? Because he has MLB experience?

[corkedbat]

I liked Joseph and he might have had a nice future in the Reds pen, but for all we know, the same may be true for Tony Cingrani. The bullpen often has a way of taking care of itself.