8/9/2012 Reds vs Baby Bears

[alloverjr]

Originally Posted by kbrake

Would you have dealt Hamilton and the young pitchers to make the upgrades that were needed?

Depends on what those upgrades were. If it addressed only one spot, then no. I don't think that gets them past the first round. If you mean multiple upgrades, then no way do I let potential in AA, keep the team from a World Series appearance.

[fearofpopvol1]

Originally Posted by cincrazy

No matter what decision that's made, if it goes poorly people whine and complain.

If Marshall blew the lead or Chapman, I don't think you'd see people nearly as upset. Ondrusek is horrible and should have never been in.

[guttle11]

Originally Posted by kbrake

Would you have dealt Hamilton and the young pitchers to make the upgrades that were needed?

They could have Lyle Overbay for the prorated minimum. Improves the bench, and gives a reasonable bat to plug in for the occasional Votto day off (and the rest of his DL stint).

It would have cost some legit prospects for Span/Pierre/Victorino/DeJesus, and I still may have done it, but improving your team doesn't have to be expensive. It's as simple as finding something better than what you currently have. That's on Jocketty.

Constantly using players in the wrong spots is on Dusty. Ondrusek had no business in this game. You have Broxton. Use him.

[kbrake]

Originally Posted by alloverjr

Depends on what those upgrades were. If it addressed only one spot, then no. I don't think that gets them past the first round. If you mean multiple upgrades, then no way do I let potential in AA, keep the team from a World Series appearance.

Completely get what you're saying and I agree. Some people act like teams called Walt trying to give away their best player and Walt was like "nah, we got this"

[Tom Servo]

A solution to the leadoff problem would have been nice, but it doesn't make Jay Bruce look any less terrible at the plate. Mes isn't hitting either, in general I feel like our catchers offensive production has dwindled (Navarro's HR aside).

[kbrake]

Originally Posted by guttle11

They could have Lyle Overbay for the prorated minimum. Improves the bench, and gives a reasonable bat to plug in for the occasional Votto day off.

It would have cost some legit prospects for Span, and I still may have done it, but improving your team doesn't have to be expensive. That's on Jocketty.

Constantly using players in the wrong spots is on Dusty.

The lineup is filled with guys who can't get on base. Overbay would help in a very minimal way. This lineup wasn't getting fixed without parting with some legit prospects.

[WVRedsFan]

Witness this. No matter the pitching, there is not a good team in baseball that's lineup reads .247' .233, .295, .260, .243, .266,.154, .217. Not one. It's really horrible and yet many want to point at a two game lead as exemplary. It's simply a miracle. I watch lots of baseball, but i haven't seen one contender with a lineup so void of offense. It's pitiful. Watching Latos, Cueto, and even Leake pitch their hearts only to lose Becausebthe team was so offense challengedthey could only score six runs. Thank you Wilson Valdez, Drew Stubbs, Jay Bruce, and many others for your good works. I'm out of here for real. Wish me relaxation at the beach. I wish you lots of homeruns, because that is apparently the only way the Reds can score. Oh yeah, there is always da bunt. Great God...

[guttle11]

Originally Posted by kbrake

The lineup is filled with guys who can't get on base. Overbay would help in a very minimal way. This lineup wasn't getting fixed without parting with some legit prospects.

My argument isn't that something needs to be fixed, just tweaked. The team can be made better with cheap moves.

Would I have made a bigger move by giving up legit prospects? Probably. That's just my nature, I never love prospects. I like them as friends. I will gladly gamble today with a proven ML player than gamble tomorrow with potential stars. But I'm not one to stew over the lack of a blockbuster, and I understand why some may be hesitant to pull that trigger. I do stew over 2012 Miguel Cairo getting daily ABs in a pennant race, and entering the 9th inning with only 2 utility men to throw up to bat.

And FWIW, Overbay has a career OBP of .354, and OPS of .794. That's more than a minimal upgrade to the bench.

[WVRedsFan]

Originally Posted by guttle11

My argument isn't that something needs to be fixed, just tweaked. The team can be made better with cheap moves.

Would I have made a bigger move by giving up legit prospects? Probably. That's just my nature, I never love prospects. I like them as friends. I will gladly gamble today with a proven ML player than gamble tomorrow with potential stars. But I'm not one to stew over the lack of a blockbuster, and I understand why some may be hesitant to pull that trigger. I do stew over 2012 Miguel Cairo getting daily ABs in a pennant race, and entering the 9th inning with only 2 utility men to throw up to bat.

I'm with you. I wouldn't have traded Hamilton, but I might have traded others. The worst part of this is te Reds are depending on kids. Cazart, despite of his HR tonight, and Frazier, despite of his two hit night, are just that. Kids. Stubbs is young, but shows no improvement despite of his obvious speed. Meseraco struggles. The old guys are not dependable. Cairo is spent. Same for Rolen. Bruce is a major disappointment. Ludwick is Ludwick. Hit or miss. Where other teams have hitters, we have streakers, and when the great pitching allows more than three runs, we risk losing. Then there's Dusty, who covets Ondrusek and under uses Simon. The guy who gives Cairo at bats and shuns Paul. It's a miracle we're in first place, but building a team around pitching without considering hitting is dangerous. He wo scores the most runs wins. Yes, you can give up three, but only score two, you lose. I have been concerned as we built up pitching over the last two years while we depended on Cozart, Stubbs, and others to carry the water to score runs while seeing Rolen and others to make up the difference when better hitters were available. According to rumor Logan was coveted. Why oh why?

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

I think it was BuckeyeRedleg who laid out an open and shut case showing his ineffectiveness and some were still arguing in favor of Logan.

I think he's an average reliever and I stand behind that. I'm not sure how giving up a homer to a guy with 20 does anything to disprove that. His OPS against has been above average among NL relievers for three consecutive years. That's hardly an "open and shut case."

Am I crazy about Ondrusek? No. But he's not as bad as you and others would have people believe. Like I said, I think he's an average reliever. I don't see anything "open and shut" to the contrary. We can debate semantics about that all day, but it's still pretty subjective. Depends on what your cup of tea is regarding stats.

[cumberlandreds]

I didn't see any of the game but it sounds like the Reds had a chance early to knock Volstad out and didn't do it. The Reds have reverted back to the April/May form of no clutch hitting. Someday Dusty will figure out that Ondrusek is spent for this season and rarely, if ever use him. But I'm afraid the season will be over before he figures this out. Where was Broxton? Isn't this what the Reds got him to do? Before this series started I felt like the Reds needed to beat the Cubs 6 of 8 over the next two weekends. The Cubs are horrible and you have to beat up on them. They have used up one of those two losses already. They had better turn it around quickly or that run of winning 22 of 25 is going to be distant memory and a total waste for the season.

[757690]

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

I think it was BuckeyeRedleg who laid out an open and shut case showing his ineffectiveness and some were still arguing in favor of Logan.

It was far from an open and shut case, as those who argued otherwise, provided plenty of contrary evidence.

[OldXOhio]

Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger

?? Paul took some pitches....Paul got a hit. What does Paul have to do with Valdez's garbage AB?

It had nothing to do with Paul's AB. It was the fact that our hopes in the ninth were resting on the shoulders of journeymen Xavier Paul and Wilson Valdez. Not exactly Ruth and Gehrig.

[OnBaseMachine]

I missed the game, so I'm late to the party. Two things. 1) Why does Dusty Baker continue to use Logan Ondrusek in high leverage situations? He is a bad pitcher. 2) Why pinch hit for Devin Mesoraco, but not Wilson Valdez and his .491 OPS?