2012-2013 Bengals Discussion

[UKFlounder]

So why is their "level of competency with their existing personnel and management team" so low? It's not evil plot, but an inability to establish a beter level of competence that frustrates so many of us.

Originally Posted by traderumor

All the annual sinister explanations for Mikey and the Bengals inconsistency, when it is really as simple as them reaching their level of competency with their existing personnel and management team. Some seasons the pointy end pigskin bounces their way for whatever reason, others their real talent level comes to roost. Portraying it as an evil plot by the owner during the tough seasons is always good for a little chuckle, I guess.

[Redsfaithful]

Originally Posted by Stray

The kinda money it would have taken to keep Joseph here made it an easy choice at the time imo.

Why do you care about Mike Brown's money? They are well under the cap every year. I'd rather have Joseph than another $10 million a year in Mike Brown's pocket, which was the alternative.

[LoganBuck]

This year's problems are based on two things:
1. Injuries
2. Lack of depth/roster issues

On the injuries, we have not seen Dre Kirkpatrick play 1 snap yet this season, he was brought it to be a starter. Jason Allen has not played 1 snap, he was to be a staple of nickle and dime packages. Leon Hall is not playing at 100%. This has overexposed Terrance Newman, and the awful safeties, because they end up in 1 on 1 coverage. Thomas Howard was the weakside linebacker who was counted on to cover most TEs. He played in 1 game. Rey Maualuga's knee injury from the preseason, was obviously a bigger deal than was initially thought, the guy is two steps slower, and has no explosion at all. Vontaze Burfict has been a nice surprise, but he is not a weak side linebacker, he is a middle linebacker, he is playing out of position. That is a whole lot of less than desirable. The safety position has become a makeshift mess street free agents, injuries, guys not developing, guys playing out of postion. Is it any wonder teams can seemingly throw at will on the Bengals?

The running back position has been exposed as a mess. BJGE is a steady player, but he is not a 3 down running back, and he is playing a 3 down back role. He doesn't have the burst and explosion on the edges, or in the pass game. Bernard Scott was to be that guy. Once again gone because of injury. Many of us howled during the draft about this. I won't argue that the Bengals got good players of value, but they didn't do enough at the running back position.

The injury to Kyle Cook has also become a problem. Jeff Faine has been worn down as the season progresses. Faine is not getting any push, and BJGE doesn't have the speed to get outside, so we are left without a running game. The Bengals can get yards in the guard/tackle gaps, not inside, or outside of them. Opposing defenses are back off the line because they don't fear the run game. As the season has gone on opposing defenses have moved to a Tampa 2, that doubles AJ Green. Green still can get his, but unless Dalton and Gresham exploit the middle of the field, there isn't enough to be had.

Now the argument can made that they didn't do enough from a personnel direction in the offseason. What can be done there? Fire the GM? Ha!

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by UKFlounder

So why is their "level of competency with their existing personnel and management team" so low? It's not evil plot, but an inability to establish a beter level of competence that frustrates so many of us.

Well, yea, Mikey is a part of the competence problem. But folks want to attribute the failure to some Montgomery Burns like conspiracy theory when they fall short of building a championship caliber team. I think that is giving Mikey more credit for intelligence than he has. He just doesn't have the talent to hire the talent to manage and find talent at every level of the organization and it trickles down throughout the organization.

[Redsfaithful]

Originally Posted by traderumor

Well, yea, Mikey is a part of the competence problem. But folks want to attribute the failure to some Montgomery Burns like conspiracy theory when they fall short of building a championship caliber team. I think that is giving Mikey more credit for intelligence than he has. He just doesn't have the talent to hire the talent to manage and find talent at every level of the organization and it trickles down throughout the organization.

The Bengals only make sense when viewed through the lens that Brown is much more worried about making money than winning.

If that's a conspiracy, then so be it I guess.

I've posted this before, but I'm going to do it again because I wish every Bengals fan would read it:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...spartone090210

Mike Brown isn’t especially gifted in terms of economic generosity, entrepreneurial enterprise or assembling winning football teams. When it comes to unintentional comedy, however, the Cincinnati Bengals owner has no peers in his profession.

Year after year, Brown is the NFL’s answer to Yogi Berra. At league meetings you can always count on the backward-looking, disapproving Grinch to make a self-serving comment that leaves the room in hushed silence – and, later that night, provokes uncontrollable fits of laughter at dinner tables and on barstools.

There was the time Brown, while making an analogy about his change of heart regarding the waiving of club-seat premiums, invoked the name of Adolf Hitler. Another year Brown was the lone owner to speak out against commissioner Roger Goodell’s personal-conduct policy, insisting that each owner should be able to keep his/her own house in order – and ignoring the irony that the Bengals employed more miscreants than any other franchise.

Last spring Brown was at it again, this time as one of the only voices against lengthening the regular season. Brown’s concern about a potential move to an 18-game regular season (while cutting back to two preseason games) wasn’t based on player safety; rather, it had to do with weather considerations. “If you were giving me my choice,” Brown told a stunned audience of 50 owners and club executives, according to two witnesses, “I’d rather sell an extra preseason game in August than another regular season game in January. It’s bad for us to sell tickets in the cold. My fans would rather have the game when it’s warm.”

To Brown’s credit, he announced at last week’s owners’ meetings in Atlanta that he had changed his mind – he’d rather have a ninth regular season contest at Paul Brown Stadium than a second preseason home game. There was just one caveat: no home games in January. When NFL schedule czar Howard Katz assured Brown, “You can be away the last month of the season,” the owner enthusiastically agreed.

Said one NFC owner: “There are 31 teams who’d rather play at home down the stretch … and then there’s Mike Brown.”

[camisadelgolf]

Mike Brown's logic on assembling a Super Bowl team:
Piaget - Stage 2 - Preoperational - Lack of Conservation - YouTube

[SeeinRed]

Not to move the topic away from Mike Brown, but the one thing above all else that has been bugging me the last three games is that the Bengals have been thoroughly out coached. The game plans seem to be lackluster, players don't seem prepared, and play calling leaves me scratching my head. Though this team has holes, I seriously believe coaching has been their biggest issue in the last three games.

The offensive play calling has really disappointed me. I really thought the Bengals would be more creative this year. Outside of a couple gimmick plays you'd almost believe Bratkowski was still calling the plays.

[Redsfaithful]

Originally Posted by SeeinRed

The offensive play calling has really disappointed me. I really thought the Bengals would be more creative this year. Outside of a couple gimmick plays you'd almost believe Bratkowski was still calling the plays.

It's really strange given how creative they looked during the 3 game winning streak.

Maybe it comes down to execution, I don't know, but it's still amazing to me how little AJ Green was involved this week. If I'm a Bengals coach I throw it downfield to him at least 2-3 times a game, even if he's double covered he still comes down with it half the time.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

The Bengals only make sense when viewed through the lens that Brown is much more worried about making money than winning.

If that's a conspiracy, then so be it I guess.

I've posted this before, but I'm going to do it again because I wish every Bengals fan would read it:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...spartone090210

Again, I consider that incompetence and ignorance. The picture is painted of Brown that he knows exactly what he's doing, and its designed to make money, with winning way down on the pecking order. I think that simply gives him too much credit. He is an incompetent business owner. He is the classic case of nepotism, not an evil dictator who is intentionally shooting his organization in the foot with the goal of making money over winning. He doesn't know enough to successfully carry out the conspiracies that are advanced by fans. He is simply incompetent and ignorant.

[Stray]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Sorry but I completely disagree. You don't let above average starters (let alone borderline Pro Bowlers) leave your team in the NFL, unless someone offers them an insane amount of money you just can't afford to match (and you have someone ready to replace them). In this case, the Bengals had neither.

As a result, they were forced to spend a first round pick on replacing him this year, when they could've taken a WR or RB that would have much improved the offense. With a difference maker at one of those two positions (and JJ on the field), this team is 5-1 and likely playoff-bound. Not to mention, last year's team likely advances farther than it did.

Instead last year was one-and-done, this year is a likely bottom 10 (if not bottom 5) finish in a year where they should challenge for the division crown, and the drudgery continues. It is the most inexcusable decision by a franchise that is full of inexcusable decisions.

It wasn't about matching, it was about beating Houston's offer. At the time it was a risky contract for them. I could be wrong, but Joseph never once played an entire season for us did he? That's why I was fine with the move then. We kept Leon Hall and made a run at Whittner (who we almost got until he chose to go to SF at the last minute).

If we're complaining about not spending the money, or a FA signing not working out that's a different story all together. We should have done a better job filling the void left when Joseph walked no doubt, but that doesn't change my opinion that at that time it was the smart move to let him go.

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

Why do you care about Mike Brown's money? They are well under the cap every year. I'd rather have Joseph than another $10 million a year in Mike Brown's pocket, which was the alternative.

I wanted to let him go and spend the money to improve the team in other areas.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by Stray

It wasn't about matching, it was about beating Houston's offer. At the time it was a risky contract for them. I could be wrong, but Joseph never once played an entire season for us did he? That's why I was fine with the move then. We kept Leon Hall and made a run at Whittner (who we almost got until he chose to go to SF at the last minute).

If we're complaining about not spending the money, or a FA signing not working out that's a different story all together. We should have done a better job filling the void left when Joseph walked no doubt, but that doesn't change my opinion that at that time it was the smart move to let him go.



I wanted to let him go and spend the money to improve the team in other areas.

Joseph said he would've stayed had we matched Houston's offer.

Having a great defensive backfield is one of the most valuable assets in football. Look at the Jets from 2008-2010. Or the Bengals own SWAT Team from 1988-1990. Do you remember the days of Mike Brim and Rod "Toast" Jones? That is why you don't let a great defensive backfield leave.

[Stray]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Joseph said he would've stayed had we matched Houston's offer.

Having a great defensive backfield is one of the most valuable assets in football. Look at the Jets from 2008-2010. Or the Bengals own SWAT Team from 1988-1990. Do you remember the days of Mike Brim and Rod "Toast" Jones? That is why you don't let a great defensive backfield leave.

But great offenses are winning Super Bowls in Goodell's new NFL. Gotta go back to 2006 to find a great defensive team to win one.

Again, I'm not speaking in hindsight because now it's obvious we should have kept him, just that at that time I was okay with it. We needed to upgrade our offense which was horrible and he was an injury prone corner on a pretty good defense asking for a ton of money. There was no way to see how everything was going to play out.

[Boss-Hog]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Joseph said he would've stayed had we matched Houston's offer.

Having a great defensive backfield is one of the most valuable assets in football. Look at the Jets from 2008-2010. Or the Bengals own SWAT Team from 1988-1990. Do you remember the days of Mike Brim and Rod "Toast" Jones? That is why you don't let a great defensive backfield leave.

To make matters even worse, I read that John Thornton reported he heard what JJ was willing to resign for the offseason prior to free agency, and he couldn't believe it was that low. Instead, he played another year for us and increased his value beyond what he would have signed for prior to 2010.

For the record, the archives here will show I never equated JJ and Leon Hall as being equals, even taking in to account the injuries. IMO, it was pretty obvious at the time JJ was the better player and was the one the Bengals should have resigned.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Joseph said he would've stayed had we matched Houston's offer.

Having a great defensive backfield is one of the most valuable assets in football. Look at the Jets from 2008-2010. Or the Bengals own SWAT Team from 1988-1990. Do you remember the days of Mike Brim and Rod "Toast" Jones? That is why you don't let a great defensive backfield leave.

Joseph has been very almost overly critical whenever talking about the Bengals. I thought at the time the Bengals knew he was gone and moved on from there. I also think the uncapped year as well as the lockout hurt the Bengals in their attempts to sign Joseph. In the end it appears as if they kept the wrong CB, Hall.

FWIW I think most organizations would have let Joseph walk instead of matching Houston's offer. With the Bengals he was good, not nearly as good as he played last year.

[SeeinRed]

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

It's really strange given how creative they looked during the 3 game winning streak.

Maybe it comes down to execution, I don't know, but it's still amazing to me how little AJ Green was involved this week. If I'm a Bengals coach I throw it downfield to him at least 2-3 times a game, even if he's double covered he still comes down with it half the time.

Well, Gruden keeps talking about how Andy Dalton is getting the ball out too quickly and not allowing the play to develop. Maybe they plays are suppose to be more agressive, but Andy is playing conservatively. I don't know, but if he is I honestly don't blame Andy with the O-line and running game he has to deal with.

In the end, this is a young offensive unit who appears rattled right now. The coaches have to do a better job of putting them in a position to succeed.

The more I thought about it last night, the more I think it is time to move on from Marvin and give either Jay Gruden or Mike Zimmer the reigns. I've been kind of meh on Marvin as a coach for a while now, and these last three games have shown me that his coaching may be getting stale in Cincinnati. At this point, I'd be more inclined to give Gruden a shot over Zimmer simply for a change of pace, but I would be happy with either. I think you would have to do this after the season. I'd be alright with giving Marvin a role as GM, but you know Mike Brown will not do that, and I'm not sure Marvin would take the position anyway.