AL mvp.... - Page 25 - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

osuceltic · 11-16-2012, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

I'm sure all the Sabernatricians are in mourning today but IMO this was an easy pick for MVP. Cabrera did something that no one had done in 45 years plus and most importantly he led his team into the playoffs and World Series. If the Tigers didn't make the playoffs or were just a really poor team then Trout may have got the vote. But considering all of what Carbrera accomplished it was an easy pick.

He also was huge down the stretch. His September performance dragged the Tigers into the postseason. I know, I know ... all games count the same. Mathematically, yes. In terms of pressure and mental strain and the impact of one day's performance on the next ... doing it in the pennant race still means something.

Both guys were great. I didn't care who won and wouldn't have argued with either choice. But just throwing out WAR numbers (which aren't exactly the Gospel anyway) and saying "case closed" fails to see the entire picture.

Kc61 · 11-16-2012, 11:29 AM

This award competition was overhyped.

Generally, when an MVP candidate's team makes the playoffs, he has a better chance of winning.

If the Angels had made the playoffs, THEN this would have been a real nail biter.

But with the Tigers making the playoffs and the Angels not, I never thought there was much doubt Cabrera would win it.

It's just the gloss voters put on "most valuable." Many of them obviously think there's a limit to "value" when your team doesn't make the playoffs.

On the Reds, I'm glad Chapman got some votes, my personal opinion was that Aroldis was the Reds MVP last year. I know others might disagree.

Tom Servo · 11-16-2012, 12:43 PM

Still think it should have been Trout, but not really worth arguing since it's done. Congrats Miggy.

Johnny Footstool · 11-16-2012, 02:04 PM

If you could travel back in time to 2011 and put a team together for 2012, knowing what you know now, would anyone pick Cabrera over Trout?

Bumstead · 11-16-2012, 03:11 PM

For 1 year: Yes

For the rest of their careers: No

dougdirt · 11-16-2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumstead

For 1 year: Yes

For the rest of their careers: No

Nothing at all suggests that Miguel Cabrera had a better season in 2012 than Mike Trout did. Why would you take Cabrera?

_Sir_Charles_ · 11-16-2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Nothing at all suggests that Miguel Cabrera had a better season in 2012 than Mike Trout did. Why would you take Cabrera?

Nothing?

I think an argument could be made for sure.

60 more ab's, 20 more hits, 13 more doubles, 14 more homers, 56 more RBI's, 41 fewer strikeouts, better avg, slg and ops, helped his team advance to the playoffs and won the MVP.

Nope, nothing at all to suggest he may have had a better season.

Trout had more SB's, 1 more walk, was a better defender, played less and led Cabrera in one stat basically WAR. Don't get me wrong, Trout had a GREAT season...but sorry, Cabrera deserved the MVP imo. But even if you want to quibble about who should've won it, I think it's pretty ludicrous to suggest that there's no facts to suggest he didn't have the better season.

AtomicDumpling · 11-16-2012, 06:16 PM

Cabrera had a great season, but Trout was better. I would have voted for Trout but I am not surprised at all that the writers voted for Cabrera.

jojo · 11-16-2012, 10:05 PM

Take Trout easily. And if you didn't, you deserve to get fired.

Phhhl · 11-16-2012, 10:58 PM

Since when has the MVP award ever been based on anything but the collective "feeling" of the voters? By most measures, Cargo's numbers were better than Votto's in 2010, for instance, but we didn't get a national moratorium on it. There was no way the first triple crown winner since Yaz WASN'T going to win the MVP. As good as Trout is and however his numbers can be interpreted to be better, he stood no chance of beating Cabrera this year. I have no doubt Trout is going to win several of these moving forward, but I cannot believe the controversy about it this year. It is a forced argument.

dougdirt · 11-17-2012, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phhhl

Since when has the MVP award ever been based on anything but the collective "feeling" of the voters? By most measures, Cargo's numbers were better than Votto's in 2010, for instance, but we didn't get a national moratorium on it. There was no way the first triple crown winner since Yaz WASN'T going to win the MVP. As good as Trout is and however his numbers can be interpreted to be better, he stood no chance of beating Cabrera this year. I have no doubt Trout is going to win several of these moving forward, but I cannot believe the controversy about it this year. It is a forced argument.

You are partially right.... it is forced. There is literally no rational argument that says that Miguel Cabrera had a better season than Mike Trout in 2012. Not a single one.

If this were a court case the evidence would be so overwhelming that it hurts. It would be like a public defender going up against the dream team of lawyers in a case where the dream team has DNA evidence, video and a written confession.

lollipopcurve · 11-17-2012, 07:23 AM

If you boil it down to nothing but the individual stats of the 2 players, Trout is the clear choice. But that's not all that goes into a player's contribution to his team's success, and the award is based on that.

edabbs44 · 11-17-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougdirt

You are partially right.... it is forced. There is literally no rational argument that says that Miguel Cabrera had a better season than Mike Trout in 2012. Not a single one.

If this were a court case the evidence would be so overwhelming that it hurts. It would be like a public defender going up against the dream team of lawyers in a case where the dream team has DNA evidence, video and a written confession.

What is the baseball evidence that is as reliable as DNA?

M2 · 11-17-2012, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phhhl

Since when has the MVP award ever been based on anything but the collective "feeling" of the voters? By most measures, Cargo's numbers were better than Votto's in 2010, for instance, but we didn't get a national moratorium on it. There was no way the first triple crown winner since Yaz WASN'T going to win the MVP. As good as Trout is and however his numbers can be interpreted to be better, he stood no chance of beating Cabrera this year. I have no doubt Trout is going to win several of these moving forward, but I cannot believe the controversy about it this year. It is a forced argument.

This.

muddie · 11-17-2012, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool

If you could travel back in time to 2011 and put a team together for 2012, knowing what you know now, would anyone pick Cabrera over Trout?

Cabrera has played at MVP candidate level for three years running. Let's see what Trout does.

11-16-2012, 11:29 AM	#362
Kc61 Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 10,828	Re: AL mvp.... This award competition was overhyped. Generally, when an MVP candidate's team makes the playoffs, he has a better chance of winning. If the Angels had made the playoffs, THEN this would have been a real nail biter. But with the Tigers making the playoffs and the Angels not, I never thought there was much doubt Cabrera would win it. It's just the gloss voters put on "most valuable." Many of them obviously think there's a limit to "value" when your team doesn't make the playoffs. On the Reds, I'm glad Chapman got some votes, my personal opinion was that Aroldis was the Reds MVP last year. I know others might disagree. Last edited by Kc61; 11-16-2012 at 11:32 AM.

11-16-2012, 12:43 PM	#363
Tom Servo thirsty and miserable Join Date: May 2006 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 5,400	Re: AL mvp.... Still think it should have been Trout, but not really worth arguing since it's done. Congrats Miggy. __________________ "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

11-16-2012, 02:04 PM	#364
Johnny Footstool Churlish Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Olathe, KS Posts: 13,664	Re: AL mvp.... If you could travel back in time to 2011 and put a team together for 2012, knowing what you know now, would anyone pick Cabrera over Trout? __________________ "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

11-16-2012, 03:11 PM	#365
Bumstead Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,267	Re: AL mvp.... For 1 year: Yes For the rest of their careers: No

11-16-2012, 06:16 PM	#368
AtomicDumpling KungFu Fighter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hamilton, OH Posts: 2,323	Re: AL mvp.... Cabrera had a great season, but Trout was better. I would have voted for Trout but I am not surprised at all that the writers voted for Cabrera.

11-16-2012, 10:05 PM	#369
jojo Five Tool Fool Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 16,569	Re: AL mvp.... Take Trout easily. And if you didn't, you deserve to get fired. __________________ "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

11-16-2012, 10:58 PM	#370
Phhhl Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 3,890	Re: AL mvp.... Since when has the MVP award ever been based on anything but the collective "feeling" of the voters? By most measures, Cargo's numbers were better than Votto's in 2010, for instance, but we didn't get a national moratorium on it. There was no way the first triple crown winner since Yaz WASN'T going to win the MVP. As good as Trout is and however his numbers can be interpreted to be better, he stood no chance of beating Cabrera this year. I have no doubt Trout is going to win several of these moving forward, but I cannot believe the controversy about it this year. It is a forced argument.

11-17-2012, 07:23 AM	#372
lollipopcurve Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Shelburne Falls, MA Posts: 9,480	Re: AL mvp.... If you boil it down to nothing but the individual stats of the 2 players, Trout is the clear choice. But that's not all that goes into a player's contribution to his team's success, and the award is based on that. __________________ "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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