Buster Posey wins NL MVP

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Rojo

2 first place votes for Yadier. What were those votes based on: the lower BA? the fewer HR's and RBI? the lack of a ring?

Epically amazing defense maybe? By no means should Molina been the MVP. Posey deserved it. However, to overlook how Molina changes the game on defense is missing the mark in my opinion. I find it odd how some who have argued Trout being MVP in other threads on here for being a complete player now have a different opinion or want to minimize what Yadi did on both offense and defense. I know he's a Cardinal but objectivity is the best medicine in this discussion.

[dougdirt]

It hurts me to say this, but I think you probably could make a solid argument that Molina could have been the MVP.

I am going to go shower for an hour and a half now. I feel dirty.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

It hurts me to say this, but I think you probably could make a solid argument that Molina could have been the MVP.

I am going to go shower for an hour and a half now. I feel dirty.

I think the only feather Molina has in his cap over Posey is that Posey started 32 games at positions other than catcher where as Molina played catcher the whole year. Other than that, I can't think of any legit argument to say he had a better year than Posey. Posey having the best OPS+ in the league really puts him above everyone else in the NL.

[PuffyPig]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

It hurts me to say this, but I think you probably could make a solid argument that Molina could have been the MVP.

I am going to go shower for an hour and a half now. I feel dirty.

But he clearly wasn't the best player?

He had only the 6th best WAR in the NL.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

But he clearly wasn't the best player?

He had only the 6th best WAR in the NL.

WAR has nothing to do with it. I don't believe the NL had a "clear" best player this year. It had a rather large group of guys in the same range.

Mike, Posey spending time at first base and Molina being quite a bit better as a defender is the argument I would make that would draw the two together.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

But he clearly wasn't the best player?

He had only the 6th best WAR in the NL.

Even fangraphs admits that the catcher position is one of the toughest positions to calculate. This is from the Fangraphs writeup on how they evaluate WAR:

"The other important point to make here is that you’ll notice that catchers have no values entered in the Fielding portion of their Win Values. Evaluating catcher defense is something we’re simply not very good at right now, and while there are strides being made (including a great article by Tom Tango in the 2009 Hardball Times Annual), there’s a lot of things that we haven’t figured out how to quantify yet. So, we’ve just left catchers alone, ranking them all as league average, and will let you all adjust their final win value however you’d like to reflect their defensive value relative to other catchers.

If you think Joe Mauer‘s catching abilities and leadership are worth one win, just add one win to what we display as his win value here. Quantifying catching defense is something that we just haven’t figured out yet, and so we’re not pretending that we have. Consider it an opportunity to fill in the blanks. "

Since fangraphs calculates it's fielding WAR based on UZR and there is no such thing as UZR for catchers, I tend to give catchers more lattitude in the WAR area (at least on fangraphs). It's simply a difficult position to see what kind of value they add to their team. That's why I find what Buster Posey did this season amazing. He lead the NL in WAR at a position that WAR has a hard time determining with full accuracy.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

WAR has nothing to do with it. I don't believe the NL had a "clear" best player this year. It had a rather large group of guys in the same range.

Mike, Posey spending time at first base and Molina being quite a bit better as a defender is the argument I would make that would draw the two together.

You need to outline your arguments so we can keep up with the rules for determining the best, these moving goal posts are killing my feet

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by westofyou

You need to outline your arguments so we can keep up with the rules for determining the best, these moving goal posts are killing my feet

Isn't that kind of evidence that determining the best player is actually very difficult and that one single metric cannot be used?

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by westofyou

You need to outline your arguments so we can keep up with the rules for determining the best, these moving goal posts are killing my feet

I don't think I have discussed WAR as any reasoning to vote for anyone as the MVP, except when I broke down how much the Tigers and Angels each had as a team to show roughly how much each player had in terms of team WAR. I don't really use WAR that often to compare players. I think WAR is a decent guide at times, but needs to be used as a bit of a guide, then you go further into value from there.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

I don't think I have discussed WAR as any reasoning to vote for anyone as the MVP, except when I broke down how much the Tigers and Angels each had as a team to show roughly how much each player had in terms of team WAR. I don't really use WAR that often to compare players. I think WAR is a decent guide at times, but needs to be used as a bit of a guide, then you go further into value from there.

That's sort of how I use WAR. I love using WAR when it comes to free agency. It's a good metric to use as to what general level of production you will get from gaining a player in a trade or free agency. However, on a micro level, I don't know if it's an effecitve tool to use. Obviously a 5 WAR player is going to be significantly better than a 1 WAR player but it's harder to tell how a 5 WAR player will be better than a 4.0 or 4.5 WAR player.

[PuffyPig]

You could convince me that Molina was extremely valuable to his team (maybe even the most valuable), but he certrainly wasn't the best player in the NL last year.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

You could convince me that Molina was extremely valuable to his team (maybe even the most valuable), but he certrainly wasn't the best player in the NL last year.

That depends on how much emphasis you want to place on pitch framing/getting balls turned into strikes.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

You could convince me that Molina was extremely valuable to his team (maybe even the most valuable), but he certrainly wasn't the best player in the NL last year.

I agree with that. My point in this discussion is that people shouldn't minimize the season Molina had, if people want to remain objective on the matter. There is a good reason why Molina got some first place votes. That's all I'm really saying.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

I know he's a Cardinal but objectivity is the best medicine in this discussion.

I've seen you use the word "objective" on this board a few times now when it comes to you defending Cardinals players.

Do you not see the irony in that?

[Wonderful Monds]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

I've seen you use the word "objective" on this board a few times now when it comes to you defending Cardinals players.

Do you not see the irony in that?

I think that I personally am being blinded from the factual greatness of everything St. Louis Cardinal related due to my own massive amount of butthurt.

Just to speak for myself.