Reds named 'Organization of the Year' by Baseball America

[M2]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

Or he could have been dealt for a player who would have been able to help those 2012 Reds.

Scott Rolen did help the 2012 Reds. I'll refer to when he played some pretty darn good baseball during Joey Votto's injury. Aside from that, Encarnacion's trade value was quickly approaching nil when the Reds dealt him. He got a big arbitration raise in 2010 and his defense at 3B was becoming untenable. He wasn't even the main target for the Jays in the Rolen deal. That was Zach Stewart. Encarnacion was a little bit of salary ballast and a short-term 3B fix.

The Reds traded two arms who haven't amounted to much and a 3B whose value cratered a year after the deal for an All-Star 3B. That's a tidy bit of business.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by M2

A) Two division titles and complete franchise trajectory change later, I don't care what Rolen got paid. He was the perfect fit in 2009 and 2010 (not to mentioned a better hitter than Encarnacion in those seasons). If the Reds don't surge forward at that precise moment in time, we might be looking at roster where Brandon Phillips and Joey Votto got moved in the name of another rebuilding phase.

B) You're still avoiding that there is just about no realistic scenario in which Edwin Encarnacion would have remained a Red through 2012. Whatever he did in 2012, it was invariably going to happen for a team playing in another city.

C) I'll say it again, two division titles and a complete franchise trajectory change. That looks like pretty brilliant success given that the Reds were on their way to becoming the Pirates v2.0 prior to the Rolen trade. In fact, you can pretty trace back the Reds' rebirth to August 23, 2009 when Rolen came back from a brief DL stint and the Reds began to furiously claw their way up from a 51-71 record. They went 27-13 the rest of the way. Walt Jocketty made a deal which turned around his entire franchise, one of the finest examples of surgical focus in the history of baseball.

Like I said, even if you want to roll with the unlikely theory that it was a brilliant trade it was still one of only three substantively good moves over that extended period of 4 seasons. It doesn't change the narrative that Jocketty was largely inactive for a long time.

[M2]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Gold Star for Robot Boy

That's my move.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by traderumor

There was no personal insult. Seriously, I'm on a computer, so are you, I'm responding to someone who I know is not named Atomic Dumpling. The insult is of your arguments, not you personally. What is so hard to understand here?

"... that's just plain disingenuous and reveals a level of ignorance from the one holding that opinion."

That is a personal insult, not a critique of an argument. Don't dig your hole any deeper. I am moving on.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by M2

Scott Rolen did help the 2012 Reds. I'll refer to when he played some pretty darn good baseball during Joey Votto's injury. Aside from that, Encarnacion's trade value was quickly approaching nil when the Reds dealt him. He got a big arbitration raise in 2010 and his defense at 3B was becoming untenable. He wasn't even the main target for the Jays in the Rolen deal. That was Zach Stewart. Encarnacion was a little bit of salary ballast and a short-term 3B fix.

The Reds traded two arms who haven't amounted to much and a 3B whose value cratered a year after the deal for an All-Star 3B. That's a tidy bit of business.

He was dfa'd by the Jays in 2010.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

"... that's just plain disingenuous and reveals a level of ignorance from the one holding that opinion."

That is a personal insult, not a critique of an argument. Don't dig your hole any deeper. I am moving on.

I'll let the record stand as it is. I actually crawl out from under a rock occasionally, thank you.

[M2]

Originally Posted by traderumor

Rolen led the way in turning the franchise from a "just show up for the games, hope we win" mentality to a professional, excellence, expecting-to-win franchise. He took the mentality of the GM that traded for him and the manager he played for and displayed what it looked like on the field.

Perfectly stated. I've never seen a more dramatic change in a team from the addition of a single player.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by M2

Scott Rolen did help the 2012 Reds. I'll refer to when he played some pretty darn good baseball during Joey Votto's injury. Aside from that, Encarnacion's trade value was quickly approaching nil when the Reds dealt him. He got a big arbitration raise in 2010 and his defense at 3B was becoming untenable. He wasn't even the main target for the Jays in the Rolen deal. That was Zach Stewart. Encarnacion was a little bit of salary ballast and a short-term 3B fix.

The Reds traded two arms who haven't amounted to much and a 3B whose value cratered a year after the deal for an All-Star 3B. That's a tidy bit of business.

The main target for the Blue Jays was unloading the injured Scott Rolen and his huge salary. Getting the future star EE was gravy. For the Reds, not only did they lose the future star and the prospects they also committed $27 million to Rolen.

As I have said, the leadership they got from Rolen is what makes the trade a wash, his performance on the field was inferior to EdE's and Rolen's salary was a loss for the Reds.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

The main target for the Blue Jays was unloading the injured Scott Rolen and his huge salary. Getting the future star EE was gravy. For the Reds, not only did they lose the future star and the prospects they also committed $27 million to Rolen.

If Edwin was a future star why did they release him?

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

If Edwin was a future star why did they release him?

Are you saying Edwin is not a star? He had an MVP candidate type of year in 2012. Since he is a star now he was a future star in the past.

[mdccclxix]

Jays sent some money in the deal too.

Anyway, the inactivity was maddening for a period of time, but there was no shortage of rumor that Walt was trying to get something done. He almost landed Cliff Lee in 2010, but the M's took Smoak instead. He was in on Hunter Pence (2 times), Michael Bourn, and Ubaldo Jiminez too, from what was reported. Win some, lose, well, he hasn't lost one yet, so never mind.

[backbencher]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

The main target for the Blue Jays was unloading the injured Scott Rolen and his huge salary. Getting the future star EE was gravy. For the Reds, not only did they lose the future star and the prospects they also committed $27 million to Rolen.

There was no "future star EdE" in the 2009 deal. There was only "future waiver wire fodder EdE."

Now, waiver wire Ed had value. The fault, if any, lies in not recognizing that.

The "Zack Stewart Cy Young" argument is a lot more compelling than anything related to EdE's inclusion in the deal.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

Are you saying Edwin is not a star? He had an MVP candidate type of year in 2012. Since he is a star now he was a future star in the past.

If the A's had kept EE, did Toronto win the trade?

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by mdccclxix

If the A's had kept EE, did Toronto win the trade?

Is anyone arguing that Toronto won the trade?

[backbencher]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

Like I said, even if you want to roll with the unlikely theory that it was a brilliant trade it was still one of only three substantively good moves over that extended period of 4 seasons. It doesn't change the narrative that Jocketty was largely inactive for a long time.

Making moves is not the same thing as making progress.

Jocketty chose the latter.

What cost him in the press (and with some overactive fans), he made up in the standings.