Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

Just throwing Griffey as a comp, but Choo could do that and still not have significant overall value if the defensive limitations are significant.

Choo is clearly a terrific hitter, but I think the defense needs to be heavily scrutinized to determine if this is going to be the upgrade it appears on paper.

Where are these questions about Choo's defense coming from? I've seen him numerous times and he's quite good out there. His arm is fantastic as well. He's got solid range too. Is there some defensive metric that's showing him as a crummy defender or something?

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Where are these questions about Choo's defense coming from? I've seen him numerous times and he's quite good out there. His arm is fantastic as well. He's got solid range too. Is there some defensive metric that's showing him as a crummy defender or something?

Yes, defensive metrics have him as a little below average in right. That means a lot below average in center.

Bad defense in CF is going to mean for a worse pitching staff. More pitches, less innings, more bullpen work going to the lesser arms and more work overall for everyone, making the bullpen worse as a whole.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

Maybe based on the most favorable projections possible, even so, how does that end up a top 100 prospect?

I suspect that's a pretty accurate projection for what the industry expects from Didi. It might prove to be optimistic, but a low .700s OPS with a great glove would put him in Elvis Andrus territory (minus Andrus' speed on the bases).

[Superdude]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Where are these questions about Choo's defense coming from? I've seen him numerous times and he's quite good out there. His arm is fantastic as well. He's got solid range too. Is there some defensive metric that's showing him as a crummy defender or something?

He's moving to a more demanding position that he's practically never played. The defensive metrics, as fickle as they are, had him as well below average even as a corner outfielder last year. Plenty of questions IMO>

[Bill]

Choo certainly has the arm for CF.

Choo actually likes the Cleveland organization and has said good things about being part of the team. He could be comfortable with the Reds too. Boras is a problem of course in the long run regardless.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Yes, defensive metrics have him as a little below average in right. That means a lot below average in center.

Bad defense in CF is going to mean for a worse pitching staff. More pitches, less innings, more bullpen work going to the lesser arms and more work overall for everyone, making the bullpen worse as a whole.

Well, I certainly haven't seen him as below average in right. I've seen him as above average in right. Well above average.

If this deal goes through, I think I'd personally prefer to see Jay in center and Choo in right. But they've both got the speed and arm for either. And they've both had experience in the minors at both slots as well. If we had a big outfield, I'd be more concerned. But lets be honest, we've got a pretty small outfield. I'm a defensive junkie, I live and breathe for defensive stalwarts, and if I'm fine with Choo...that's saying something IMO.

[Strikes Out Looking]

1. Choo CF
2. Phillips 2b
3. Votto 1B
4. Ludwick LF
5. Bruce RF
6. Frazier 3B
7. Cozart SS
8. Hannigan/Mez C

Pretty pretty good.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Well, I certainly haven't seen him as below average in right. I've seen him as above average in right. Well above average.

If this deal goes through, I think I'd personally prefer to see Jay in center and Choo in right. But they've both got the speed and arm for either. And they've both had experience in the minors at both slots as well. If we had a big outfield, I'd be more concerned. But lets be honest, we've got a pretty small outfield. I'm a defensive junkie, I live and breathe for defensive stalwarts, and if I'm fine with Choo...that's saying something IMO.

There are 81 games that we don't play at home too. Our small outfield doesn't exist there.

[Scrap Irony]

Three former CF in the Red OF-- and, while none of the three may make a great CF, the combination of the three should make the overall OF defense decent. Add in Heisey and Paul as backup OF to play in difficult stadiums, and it's a far cry from the Lost Decade.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Scary thought for Tribe fans....

MLB.com reporter Zack Meisel pointed out on Twitter that if the Indians do acquire Stubbs, the Tribe will have added the 2011 National League strikeout leader and the current American League strikeout leader (Mark Reynolds) in a span of three days.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Bill

Boras is a problem of course in the long run regardless.

Conspiracy theory here. The Reds talk with the Indians about trading for a Boras client in order to shake Boras' tree about Michael Bourn.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

Three former CF in the Red OF-- and, while none of the three may make a great CF, the combination of the three should make the overall OF defense decent. Add in Heisey and Paul as backup OF to play in difficult stadiums, and it's a far cry from the Lost Decade.

This is what I'm seeing as well. He's not alone out there. He's got speed & range. He's got a cannon for an arm. He's not trying it for the first time. And he's got teammates next to him.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

There are 81 games that we don't play at home too. Our small outfield doesn't exist there.

Well, I'm writing a letter to Bud about that. How dare he make us play on the road!

I know, I just don't think it'll be as big a dropoff as many think.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Where are these questions about Choo's defense coming from? I've seen him numerous times and he's quite good out there. His arm is fantastic as well. He's got solid range too. Is there some defensive metric that's showing him as a crummy defender or something?

For one he has played about 10 career games in CF, so it is at least a question.

His career in RF, he has been mostly around average to a tick above according to metrics, and graded out very poorly last season. I don't know about last year to have a definitive answer if it means much for the future. But I consider it concerning considering he is touching 30 now, so it wouldn't be crazy to see some defensive downgrading (albeit not to the degree shown in the stats).

Presumably if Jocketty believed he was that bad the trade would not be consumated. Just throwing it out there for discussion because it could be a deal breaker in his overall value.... hoping someone is more familiar with the situation.

[KoryMac5]

Originally Posted by Edd Roush

So Cleveland would trade for Didi and then flip him. The Reds would hold on to Choo, correct?

Rosenthal has stated that Towers absolutely loves Didi, so I would imagine he is going to be part of a package for Upton. Would have been interesting to see if the Reds could have put a Didi, Leake and others package together for Upton. Choo's defense in center has me a bit concerned, though I think Walt only plans on using him there for 1 yr stopgap.