Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious

[jojo]

Originally Posted by traderumor

Yea, see, now it seems you are just being argumentative, since now you are shifting to "roughly equal," whereas your earlier condescending remark used equal. Exhausting.

Drop roughly. The point still stands. I'm confused by what point you're making. You drew an equivalence between the defensive abilities of Stubbs and Choo. If you really don't think the difference between the two is a push defensively then we agree.

[Superdude]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

I can't believe the amount of people who don't find concern in a 27 year old with a career .290 OBP being a starter. Yes, he has things he brings to the table that are certainly good.

Is constantly chiming in with Cozart's OBP in his first full season really an argument? I don't understand your point in putting up blinders to every positive aspect of his game. Especially when the overall picture paints Cozart as an average to above average shortstop.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Honestly, I'm not all that terribly concerned with who is playing SS for the Louisville Bats or Pensacola Blue Wahoos, be it a no-stick guy in our system or minor league filler. You are right, the Reds should have a contingency plan for SS should something happen to Cozart. But as far as the rest of the organization goes, you just have to draft and develop more stars. You're not going to have a top-notch prospect at every position in your minor league system.

My point was that the AAA ss should BE the backup for Cozart in the event of an injury. A backup/utility infielder on the Reds should be just that...not a long term solution for short.

And I don't expect top notch prospects at every position. But for a defense first position (SS, C, CF and to a lesser degree 2b) I expect there to be a legitimate defender at most levels for those slots. Even if they're a Janish-type with limited offensive skills. We don't have that for short right now. So IMO the next trade we make should be to trade from a strength (RH relief pitching?) to fill some upper level holes in the minors. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I really wish we hadn't dealt away Janish. He sure would be a nice insurance policy for AAA right about now.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Brutus

For the record:

Cozart AAA 2011

.310/.357/.467/.825

Gregorius AAA 2012

.243/.288/.427/.715

The argument last night against trading Gregorius was that despite his weak bat, his glove made him valuable. Well, Cozart put up nearly 3 WAR last year in his first full season in the big leagues. It seems either this is an inconsistent argument or perhaps Cozart deserves a second season before hanging him in effigy for his ".290 OBP"

Fair point...but don't forget to factor their ages into that argument. It's a rather big factor.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Fair point...but don't forget to factor their ages into that argument. It's a rather big factor.

Not when we're talking about right now. If the issue is Cozart's .290 OBP isn't good enough, then it calls into question why Gregorius is any better an option.

Can Gregorius be a better hitter in 5 years? Possibly, though scouts don't seem to think so. But Gregorius is a weak-hitting shortstop right now, so age is irrelevant to having him in the organization as a backstop.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Brutus

Not when we're talking about right now. If the issue is Cozart's .290 OBP isn't good enough, then it calls into question why Gregorius is any better an option.

Can Gregorius be a better hitter in 5 years? Possibly, though scouts don't seem to think so. But Gregorius is a weak-hitting shortstop right now, so age is irrelevant to having him in the organization as a backstop.

No one is arguing Gregorius is a better option today. But what about July? 2014? 2015? Right now, Cozart is literally the only option for any of those questions within the organization.

[kaldaniels]

It seems like some are not happy with Cozart. If that is the case, which SS in baseball would you be happy with right now?

Again, his OBP stinks, but I feel kinda greedy complaining about it.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Brutus

Not when we're talking about right now. If the issue is Cozart's .290 OBP isn't good enough, then it calls into question why Gregorius is any better an option.

Can Gregorius be a better hitter in 5 years? Possibly, though scouts don't seem to think so. But Gregorius is a weak-hitting shortstop right now, so age is irrelevant to having him in the organization as a backstop.

Just to be clear, I'm very happy with Cozart as our SS. My concern isn't his OBP (low in the order I'm fine with it). My concern is the lack of anything remotely resembling a shortstop beyond Cozart.

But to your point...if you're talking about the here and now only....then I absolutely choose Cozart over Didi. I was only pointing out that showing Didi's AAA stats and comparing them to Zack's AAA stats is pretty unfair towards Didi considering their development level at the time.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

No one is arguing Gregorius is a better option today. But what about July? 2014? 2015? Right now, Cozart is literally the only option for any of those questions within the organization.

It's still awfully inconsistent, Doug. You are dismissing Cozart because of his on-base percentage but last night fretting the loss of Gregorius because his defense, in the bigger picture, makes him valuable in spite of his weak bat. So shouldn't you be applying the same thinking to Cozart's 3 WAR?

[kaldaniels]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Just to be clear, I'm very happy with Cozart as our SS. My concern isn't his OBP (low in the order I'm fine with it). My concern is the lack of anything remotely resembling a shortstop beyond Cozart.

But to your point...if you're talking about the here and now only....then I absolutely choose Cozart over Didi. I was only pointing out that showing Didi's AAA stats and comparing them to Zack's AAA stats is pretty unfair towards Didi considering their development level at the time.

I can agree here. Organizational depth is a concern.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

It seems like some are not happy with Cozart. If that is the case, which SS in baseball would you be happy with right now?

Again, his OBP stinks, but I feel kinda greedy complaining about it.

I don't think that's the case. I think most here are very satisfied with Zack. It's the lack of anything beyond him that's concerning IMO.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Superdude

Is constantly chiming in with Cozart's OBP in his first full season really an argument? I don't understand your point in putting up blinders to every positive aspect of his game. Especially when the overall picture paints Cozart as an average to above average shortstop.

People keep tossing around "first season" or "rookie" with Cozart as if he were 23 years old and is very likely to improve. He is a 27 year old player. He is older than Jay Bruce, Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto, Mat Latos, Todd Frazier, JJ Hoover, Mike Leake, Aroldis Chapman.... At his age, rookie or not, he isn't really likely to show big improvements.

The overall picture paints him as being solid. And he is. Unless he goes the Drew Stubbs route and declines every year after his first. Then what? We don't have any other options at all if he does. Or heck, even if he goes out and has a bad collision at second base again and has to miss 4 months. Or if his range begins to decline like most guys do after age 25.

Odds are, Zack Cozart is nearly peaked as a player right now and there is no one behind him for years to come and he, thus far, has been a pretty poor offensive player. Drew Stubbs career as a hitter is better than Cozart.

I guess you guys can not be concerned by that. I am.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

I don't think that's the case. I think most here are very satisfied with Zack. It's the lack of anything beyond him that's concerning IMO.

You can develop more prospects. You can go out and sign organizational depth that will be far more ready to step in than Gregorius. Heck, Jason Donald will be able to do what Gregorius could do right now.

[Superdude]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

I don't think that's the case. I think most here are very satisfied with Zack. It's the lack of anything beyond him that's concerning IMO.

I see the argument, but it seems a little greedy calling for competent minor league back ups at every position. If the need arises for a different long term option for whatever reason., I'm assuming that'll get addressed just like anything else.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

People keep tossing around "first season" or "rookie" with Cozart as if he were 23 years old and is very likely to improve. He is a 27 year old player. He is older than Jay Bruce, Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto, Mat Latos, Todd Frazier, JJ Hoover, Mike Leake, Aroldis Chapman.... At his age, rookie or not, he isn't really likely to show big improvements.

The overall picture paints him as being solid. And he is. Unless he goes the Drew Stubbs route and declines every year after his first. Then what? We don't have any other options at all if he does. Or heck, even if he goes out and has a bad collision at second base again and has to miss 4 months. Or if his range begins to decline like most guys do after age 25.

Odds are, Zack Cozart is nearly peaked as a player right now and there is no one behind him for years to come and he, thus far, has been a pretty poor offensive player. Drew Stubbs career as a hitter is better than Cozart.

I guess you guys can not be concerned by that. I am.

27 isn't 33.

Very few rookies, 26 or otherwise, don't show some improvement in their second season. Especially prior to 30 years old.