Your favorite Jocketty deal?

[Wonderful Monds]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

Yeah I think it is a real stretch to claim that Scott Rolen had much if anything to do with making all those guys into star players. Scott Rolen is not Yoda. If his leadership was so magical why didn't his Blue Jay's teammates respond in a similar way? Why was 2011 such a bad season for the Reds with Yoda right there providing his leadership?

Scott Rolen had the good fortune of arriving in Cincinnati at the exact moment when a big crew of highly talented young players were breaking onto the scene, which confused some people into thinking that Rolen was the reason for those players' success. Some fans seem unable to distinguish the real cause and effect of the Reds' ascent into an upper echelon team. Rolen came to the right place at the right time. Considering the Reds paid him $27 million while he spent long stretches unable to play due to old age and really didn't play all that well when he was on the field, it was left to Rolen's excellent leadership to keep his acquisition from being a bust. The Latos and Chapman deals have been light-years more impactful on the team's success than the Rolen deal.

Yeah! Why would you believe that silly garbage, regardless of the fact that the players themselves made the same claims?!

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

Yeah! Why would you believe that silly garbage, regardless of the fact that the players themselves made the same claims?!

It is a good question. Scouts all over baseball thought very highly of a whole lot of the linchpins of our team before Scott Rolen ever said a single word to them. Was it because those guys were super talented, or because the scouts knew that one day Scott Rolen would be their teammate? Johnny Cueto threw the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Joey Votto hit the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Mat Latos threw the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Brandon Phillips was Brandon Phillips before Scott Rolen came here. Did Homer Bailey figure something out because of Scott Rolen? Did Jay Bruce? Did Arroyo finally figure out what Scott Rolen was trying to tell him in 2012 that made his peripherals improve?

These guys can believe a whole lot of what they want to. That doesn't make it so. This team is where they are because there is a whole lot of really, really talented players on it. They were going to be that talented with or without Scott Rolens words or example.

My question is, what on Earth would make you believe that something Scott Rolen said or did changed the outcome of so many different players, all of who were incredibly highly thought of from a young age?

[Degenerate39]

1. Chap
2. Latos
3. Rolen
4. Choo

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

It is a good question. Scouts all over baseball thought very highly of a whole lot of the linchpins of our team before Scott Rolen ever said a single word to them. Was it because those guys were super talented, or because the scouts knew that one day Scott Rolen would be their teammate? Johnny Cueto threw the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Joey Votto hit the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Mat Latos threw the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Brandon Phillips was Brandon Phillips before Scott Rolen came here. Did Homer Bailey figure something out because of Scott Rolen? Did Jay Bruce? Did Arroyo finally figure out what Scott Rolen was trying to tell him in 2012 that made his peripherals improve?

These guys can believe a whole lot of what they want to. That doesn't make it so. This team is where they are because there is a whole lot of really, really talented players on it. They were going to be that talented with or without Scott Rolens words or example.

My question is, what on Earth would make you believe that something Scott Rolen said or did changed the outcome of so many different players, all of who were incredibly highly thought of from a young age?

If it were as simple as having 5 tools then Jim Bowden would be a genius.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

My question is, what on Earth would make you believe that something Scott Rolen said or did changed the outcome of so many different players, all of who were incredibly highly thought of from a young age?

There's no way to prove the amount of influence the Rolen had or did not have.
I will concede that.
However, the team was transformed very similiarly to when Pete came over as a manager in the 80's. All the sudden people started playing better.

A lot of the older people here have worked at may different places.
Some places suck the soul out of you. Lots of bad attitudes, lack of team work,etc. Other places have work environment that just naturally lend themselves to greater productivity. People like working there, and yes, they do try harder.

I've seen it outside of basebal where the right culture change leads to everyone perfroming better. It's hard to do, but not impossible. I believe it can happen on a baseball team too. I'm not going to assign a percentage that I think Rolen is responsible for. You're right, the Reds had a lot of talent on that team and we'll never know for sure. But when the players themselves say that Rolen made a difference, that carries a lot of weight for me. It's just like our boring jobs.. Sometimes a new boss or a transfer to another group makes a big change in our attitude and productivity, even though it's the same person.

[Johnny Footstool]

The Rolen deal was a great starter, but it wasn't an extremely bold more. At the time, it looked and felt like the Reds were just adding a past-his-prime veteran, as they and many other teams had done in the past.

The Chapman deal blew apart that perception. It announced that the Reds weren't going to be just another small-market AAAA team, feeding talent to the big money clubs and surviving on leftovers. It announced that the Reds were going to compete, and compete hard. It was brash and risky, and it made the baseball world take notice.

[Johnny Footstool]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

Yeah I think it is a real stretch to claim that Scott Rolen had much if anything to do with making all those guys into star players. Scott Rolen is not Yoda. If his leadership was so magical why didn't his Blue Jay's teammates respond in a similar way? Why was 2011 such a bad season for the Reds with Yoda right there providing his leadership?

Scott Rolen had the good fortune of arriving in Cincinnati at the exact moment when a big crew of highly talented young players were breaking onto the scene, which confused some people into thinking that Rolen was the reason for those players' success. Some fans seem unable to distinguish the real cause and effect of the Reds' ascent into an upper echelon team. Rolen came to the right place at the right time. Considering the Reds paid him $27 million while he spent long stretches unable to play due to old age and really didn't play all that well when he was on the field, it was left to Rolen's excellent leadership to keep his acquisition from being a bust. The Latos and Chapman deals have been light-years more impactful on the team's success than the Rolen deal.

I agree with this line of thinking. It irritates me when people try to give undue credit to "leadership" (Rolen, Dusty) when the real credit should go to the players who actually performed on the field.

[Roy Tucker]

I think the over-arching point here is that Walt has made some darn fine moves.

[kaldaniels]

It's like the whole psychological aspect of athletic performance is being overlooked by many on here.

When it is suggested by some on here that Votto may have improved as a player due to Rolen's influence, we get the old strawman argument "Well I guess it was Scott and his magic beans that turned Votto,Bruce,Cueto,Latos,et al. into the outstanding players that they are". I think to come up with that retort is missing the boat.

No one here knows to what extent Rolen helped. But when a standup guy like Votto says Rolen set the example and changed the path of his career, who are we to laugh and scoff at that? I'm not making any crazy proclamations that Rolen is the reason the Reds made the playoffs 2 of the past 3 years, but I do think he has had a positive influence on our guys in the ol' noggin department. Certainly some room for some discussion and different points of view as to what extent, but as far as I'm concerned there's no room to ridicule the idea of it.

[RichRed]

I was leery of the Rolen trade because of his age, though I don't remember being opposed to it.

I had no idea who Aroldis Chapman even was until I started reading about him on here around the time of the signing, then I was able to appreciate what a good move that was later.

I thought the Marshall trade was pretty good but I generally don't get too excited about trades for relief pitchers.

The Latos deal was extremely bold and exciting, but also made me nervous for the amount of talent that was given up. I realize that Grandal, Alonso, etc., were blocked on the Reds, but it made me a little uneasy anyway.

The trade for Choo, on the other hand, made me giddy the second I heard about it. It's like that satisfying feeling you get when you slide that last puzzle piece into place or when you "swish" a 3-pointer in basketball. I just thought it was the perfect combination of filling a need, not giving up any pitching, with that dash of Jocketty's patented cold-blooded boldness. Plus, the thought of high OBP in front of Votto makes me tingly.

So while it can certainly be argued that it wasn't the BEST move Jocketty's made, the trade for Choo is my favorite.

[Rojo]

Hannahan signing, hanns down.

He ought to play with his back to the infield, just to keep it fair.

[wheels]

Originally Posted by RichRed

I was leery of the Rolen trade because of his age, though I don't remember being opposed to it.

I had no idea who Aroldis Chapman even was until I started reading about him on here around the time of the signing, then I was able to appreciate what a good move that was later.

I thought the Marshall trade was pretty good but I generally don't get too excited about trades for relief pitchers.

The Latos deal was extremely bold and exciting, but also made me nervous for the amount of talent that was given up. I realize that Grandal, Alonso, etc., were blocked on the Reds, but it made me a little uneasy anyway.

The trade for Choo, on the other hand, made me giddy the second I heard about it. It's like that satisfying feeling you get when you slide that last puzzle piece into place or when you "swish" a 3-pointer in basketball. I just thought it was the perfect combination of filling a need, not giving up any pitching, with that dash of Jocketty's patented cold-blooded boldness. Plus, the thought of high OBP in front of Votto makes me tingly.

So while it can certainly be argued that it wasn't the BEST move Jocketty's made, the trade for Choo is my favorite.

That's my feeling almost to a tee.

I'd also like to add that most of the time that last deal that puts a team over the top proves to be the most elusive. I could end up being wrong, but I firmly believe this move cements the club for 2013.

The Choo trade proves beyond any doubt in my mind that Walt "gets it". For over a decade, I could never say that about a Reds GM.

Finally, the finishing touch has been applied, and the roster is wonderfully balanced. That's why it's my favortie Walt Jocketty move.

[TheBurn]

Chap followed closely by Latos.