How inconsistent is Jay Bruce?

[Wonderful Monds]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Yes.
And he struck out a lot.
And he wasn't a good fielder.
And he struck out a lot.
And he didn't hit sac flies (because they landed in the seats).
And he wasn't clutch.
And he struck out a lot.
And he wasn't a good fielder.
and he wasn't clutch.
And he didn't hit sac flies.

Dunn's fielding killed half his value. That's not just a throw away complaint.

[Tom Servo]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Yes.
And he struck out a lot.
And he wasn't a good fielder.
And he struck out a lot.
And he didn't hit sac flies (because they landed in the seats).
And he wasn't clutch.
And he struck out a lot.
And he wasn't a good fielder.
and he wasn't clutch.
And he didn't hit sac flies.

and he was lazy and had bad fundamentals!!!

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

Dunn's fielding killed half his value. That's not just a throw away complaint.

Sure, but it is a total sum game and his total sum was still pretty darn good for a long time when he was being talked about as worthless by probably more than half of the teams fanbase.

[MikeThierry]

I think it's worse in the case of Holliday because the hate for him in St. Louis is mind boggling. He is great value for his contract and has been a pretty good fielder most of his career. He regressed last year a bit but on a whole he's been a plus fielder. Plus, he's a career .292 BA, .387 OBP, .872 OPS with RISP. If you look at his career numbers, they're better than a lot of HOFer's. At least with Dunn, there is clear evidence that he sucks in some areas. Dunn is a career .223 hitter with RISP with a ton of SO. He does have a pretty good OPS with RISP but he does strike out a lot and makes a ton of outs in those situations.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

I think it's worse in the case of Holliday because the hate for him in St. Louis is mind boggling. He is great value for his contract and has been a pretty good fielder most of his career. He regressed last year a bit but on a whole he's been a plus fielder. Plus, he's a career .292 BA, .387 OBP, .872 OPS with RISP. If you look at his career numbers, they're better than a lot of HOFer's. At least with Dunn, there is clear evidence that he sucks in some areas. Dunn is a career .223 hitter with RISP with a ton of SO. He does have a pretty good OPS with RISP but he does strike out a lot and makes a ton of outs in those situations.

How is that OBP with RISP? At one point it was over .400 and people were claiming that he sucked with runners on base.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

How is that OBP with RISP? At one point it was over .400 and people were claiming that he sucked with runners on base.

It's pretty good at .399. I guess he's a walk/so/hr machine with RISP. That said, his defense was bad and there are things there with Dunn to which you can say he's not good in some areas. With Holliday, until last season, he was the only player in baseball other than Pujols that had an OPS over .900 for 6 straight years. Holliday has quietly been one of the more dominant, consistent hitters since he entered the league. I don't know, if you saw some of the stuff they were saying about him and the rest of the Cardinals offense you would see what I'm talking about. People ask me why I come in here. The answer is to save what little sanity I have left.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

It's pretty good at .399. I guess he's a walk/so/hr machine with RISP. .

Yes. With runners on base, the pitcher would just nibble, resulting in either a walk or strike out most of the time.

It was maddening watching him watch strike 3 with RISP. It happened pretty often.

Dunn had some talent, but overall, he always left you wanting more.
Part of the problem is that the Reds never really had a good hitter behind him.
If you take the runs scored by Dunn and subtract his number of HR (times he drove himself in), the amount of times he scored is miniscule given his high OBP.
2008: 79 runs scored, 40 HR.. He was only driven in 39 times in 651 plate appearances! This is despite an OBP of 386! Part of the blame goes to his teammates, but he wasn't exactly a good baserunner. This part is overlooked (IMO). This is the same reasoning why Hannigan should not be the #2 hitter, despite having a respectable OBP. There's more to the game than OBP.

Add in the fact that Dunn was a horrible defender in LF and refused to move positions as a Red, and I was glad to see him leave. I didn't hate him by any means, but part of the transformation of this team was to not pay Dunn 10 million/year and invest that money in other areas where it was more productive.

[Wonderful Monds]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Yes. With runners on base, the pitcher would just nibble, resulting in either a walk or strike out most of the time.

It was maddening watching him watch strike 3 with RISP. It happened pretty often.

Dunn had some talent, but overall, he always left you wanting more.
Part of the problem is that the Reds never really had a good hitter behind him.
If you take the runs scored by Dunn and subtract his number of HR (times he drove himself in), the amount of times he scored is miniscule given his high OBP.
2008: 79 runs scored, 40 HR.. He was only driven in 39 times in 651 plate appearances! This is despite an OBP of 386! Part of the blame goes to his teammates, but he wasn't exactly a good baserunner. This part is overlooked (IMO). This is the same reasoning why Hannigan should not be the #2 hitter, despite having a respectable OBP. There's more to the game than OBP.

Add in the fact that Dunn was a horrible defender in LF and refused to move positions as a Red, and I was glad to see him leave. I didn't hate him by any means, but part of the transformation of this team was to not pay Dunn 10 million/year and invest that money in other areas where it was more productive.

http://youtu.be/xSLlZh9yelk

[MikeThierry]

Red, that's what I was kind of alluding to earlier. There is enough there with Dunn to see why he would be frustrating to watch. Holliday is an elite player but a lot of people in St. Louis thinks he sucks.

[*BaseClogger*]

Rick's comment on the article pretty much nails what it is about Bruce that drives us Reds fans crazy--it isn't that Jay has any more 0-4 or 3-4 days than other hitters of a comparable OPS, it's that he groups them all in the same two-week stretches!

[Steve4192]

Dunn's biggest problem was that he wasn't Albert Pujols.

He came up through the minors at the same time as Pujols, even played in the same minor league as Pujols in 2000, and was the higher ranked prospect. When Pujols busted out and became the best hitter in the game, Reds fans expected Dunn to be even better. The expectations for him after his ridiculously productive 2001 season were off the charts, and many Reds fans never forgave him for not living up to those unrealistic expectations. When Adam turned out to be 'just' a very productive hitter, rather than a once-in-a-generation hitter, many Reds fans soured on him and started to see nothing but his flaws.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

Red, that's what I was kind of alluding to earlier. There is enough there with Dunn to see why he would be frustrating to watch. Holliday is an elite player but a lot of people in St. Louis thinks he sucks.

Holliday >> Dunn.
I agree with that.

Again, not saying Dunn sucked (he was the arguably the team's best player the entire time he was here), but he had weaknesses.
Dunn was not a legitimate all-star level player, in my opinion, although I know people here will disagree.

[kaldaniels]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Sure, but it is a total sum game and his total sum was still pretty darn good for a long time when he was being talked about as worthless by probably more than half of the teams fanbase.

It is a total sum game. Please use that same perspective when discussing Cozart's poor OBP to date.

And I'm not trying to stir you up Doug, I just felt you were a little harsh on him in the other thread.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Steve4192

Dunn's biggest problem was that he wasn't Albert Pujols.

He came up through the minors at the same time as Pujols, even played in the same minor league as Pujols in 2000, and was the higher ranked prospect. When Pujols busted out and became the best hitter in the game, Reds fans expected Dunn to be even better. The expectations for him after his ridiculously productive 2001 season were off the charts, and many Reds fans never forgave him for not living up to those unrealistic expectations. When Adam turned out to be 'just' a very productive hitter, rather than a once-in-a-generation hitter, many Reds fans soured on him and started to see nothing but his flaws.

I think that's what going on with Holliday right now. He isn't Pujols (who is in their prime?). Pujols had insane numbers with RISP and Cards fans think Holliday can put up those type of numbers. Yes, in comparison Holliday is "unclutch" compared to Pujols but very few players can put up a .332 BA, .472 OBP (crazy), .644 SLG, 1.116 OPS with RISP in their career.

EDIT: The only player I'm finding that come close to and surpass Pujols clutch numbers is Ted Williams. If anyone can find a player that has better clutch stats than Williams and Pujols, let me know. Essentially Pujols ruined everyone's point of view when discussing the good players in baseball.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

It is a total sum game. Please use that same perspective when discussing Cozart's poor OBP to date.

And I'm not trying to stir you up Doug, I just felt you were a little harsh on him in the other thread.

I did use it.