2013 Bengals Discussion

[RiverRat13]

If you could take the 2005, 2006, or even the 2007 Carson Palmer and put him on this Bengals team you'd have a real contender. After 2007, the problem wasn't that Carson's not a "winner", the problem was Carson just wasn't any good.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Benihana

I think it's more about playing well in big games. Playoff games. Divisional games. Giving us a chance to win. This team's Defense is 10x better than it was in the Carson years, and that coupled with a weak schedule and an out-of-this-world WR are the reasons why it has been able to get to the playoffs the past two years.

Not saying Dalton has been a negative, but he's far from the main reason why they are winning.

(Was Kyle Orton or Rex Grossman a "winner" when they played for the Bears? Dilfer with the Ravens? Smith with the 49ers?)

I think its a matter of placing too much on the QB play as the determining factor for a championship team. For example, Jim McMahon was not a great QB, yet the Bears fielded one of history's best in a given season. There are examples littered throughout the history of the game where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. Labeling Dalton as a "meh" QB is unfair and premature.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by traderumor

QBs are like aces in MLB, a limited quantity, so if you don't have one, you go with the one that gives you the best chance of winning among what's available. It would seem in theory that you would want each unit to be elite, wouldn't you? So is it poor planning that causes a team to take that area and have to settle for the best that fits among available options? For example, did the Ravens want Dilfer to be their QB, or was that the way things shook out in the multivariable world of team building? So Dalton isn't a top 10 QB, no one is arguing that he is. But the discussion began with "he will not lead the Bengals to the Promised Land." I think there is a lot more going into that than if he is or not in the same league as the top QBs in the league. Because it isn't like Manning is flashing a lot of rings. You would think he had to start ordering toe rings based on what I've been reading in this discussion.

I agree with your first statement. And I have no problem with getting by with a standard issue quarterback like Dalton until they have the opportunity to find a true playmaker.

My concern with Dalton is that even at best, falls into the Flacco zone of a guy just good enough to not "require" an upgrade, and not good enough to actually get to the Super Bowl.

I think Peyton Manning's solitary Super Bowl ring is proof of the point that it's difficult to win a Super Bowl even with a Hall of Fame quarterback, doing it without one is very difficult and getting harder every year.

Going back 10 years, of the 20 starting quarterbacks in the Super Bowl, I'd say 14 have made strong cases for being in the Hall of Fame. Another 2 were likely the best quarterback in their franchise's history.

The last AFC team without a true Hall of Fame level quarterback was the Raiders(Gannon) in Super Bowl XXXVII. Since then it's been a steady stream of Roethlisberger, Peyton, and Brady.

Now to be clear, I'm not much of a "Doesn't have what it takes to be a true winner" nonsense in terms of assessing character traits. I don't think Tom Brady wants to win more than Andy Dalton, I just think he's a better quarterback, and I think for the Bengals to take the step from "Consistent Playoff Presence" to "True Super Bowl contender" they'll likely need a better quarterback.

[Stray]

27 tds and 16 ints isn't all that different from what Carson was giving us in his good years. It's easy to focus on the terrible end to the season that our offense had, but overall I think Dalton had an impressive year. And more importantly, he improved from his rookie year to his 2nd year. Carson also had one of the best WR tandems in the NFL at the time.

My concern with Dalton is that even at best, falls into the Flacco zone of a guy just good enough to not "require" an upgrade, and not good enough to actually get to the Super Bowl.

How do we even know what his best is? And since you called it the Flacco zone, Dalton has had a much better first two years of his career than Flacco had, and Dalton was way more important to his team during those two years than Flacco was to the Ravens at the time.

[Hoosier Red]

Obviously we don't "know" what his best is. But I think it's fair to project to the best of our abillities. And based on my completely uneducated projection, and the projection of various people who do know more than I do, I have concerns that he's going to suddenly become a great quarterback, and I have concerns about the Bengals ability to take the next leap if he is not a great quarterback.

Obviously, there are numerous examples of quarterbacks becoming great after a couple of pedestrian seasons, and many more examples of teams that achieved greatness with an average or slightly above average quarterback.

But while there are exceptions to every rule, I have concerns about Dalton's and the Bengal's ability to be that exception.

The point of the Flacco zone*(can I trademark that?) is that I'd have concerns about him being the centerpiece going forward after his first two seasons as well. And it's not like Dalton's been that much better than Flacco. On rate stats like completion % and yards per completion, Dalton's very similar to Flacco. Though of course it's fair to point out the TD/INT ratio and total yards were both fairly significantly higher.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

Obviously we don't "know" what his best is. But I think it's fair to project to the best of our abillities. And based on my completely uneducated projection, and the projection of various people who do know more than I do, I have concerns that he's going to suddenly become a great quarterback, and I have concerns about the Bengals ability to take the next leap if he is not a great quarterback.

Obviously, there are numerous examples of quarterbacks becoming great after a couple of pedestrian seasons, and many more examples of teams that achieved greatness with an average or slightly above average quarterback.

But while there are exceptions to every rule, I have concerns about Dalton's and the Bengal's ability to be that exception.

The point of the Flacco zone*(can I trademark that?) is that I'd have concerns about him being the centerpiece going forward after his first two seasons as well. And it's not like Dalton's been that much better than Flacco. On rate stats like completion % and yards per completion, Dalton's very similar to Flacco. Though of course it's fair to point out the TD/INT ratio and total yards were both fairly significantly higher.

I'd still say he's Ken Anderson more than Kitna, capable of some really strong numbers going forward.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by traderumor

I'd still say he's Ken Anderson more than Kitna, capable of some really strong numbers going forward.

I really hope you're right. If he's Ken Anderson, in this offense, he could put up some ridiculous numbers.

[WMR]

Please don't try to compare Carson's peak years with what Dalton has shown so far. That's a huge chasm of difference in ability, innate talent, and peak performance.

[LoganBuck]

New Year, New Offseason, New Thread

With Both Zimmer and Gruden, interviewing this week for several jobs, aside from Hugh Jackson, who would you like to see brought in to replace either of them should they get head coaching jobs?

Also of note, Denard Robinson will be playing wide receiver at the Senior Bowl.

[KoryMac5]

I don't see either going anywhere to be honest. I know Zimmer got the call today from a few teams but interest in him has been slow to date and Gruden shot himself in the foot with a poor showing the last few weeks. I have to think if they did get jobs it would be internal replacements.

On the team site Hobson has been talking about the Bengals want to talk to Johnson, Jones and Newman in regards to contracts. No mention of Andre Smith. I would not be shocked if they let Smith walk and replace him with a cheaper Collins. Just a hunch on my part

[Stray]

Originally Posted by WMR

Please don't try to compare Carson's peak years with what Dalton has shown so far. That's a huge chasm of difference in ability, innate talent, and peak performance.

Carson had one incredible year in 2005. That year he had a 1400+ yard receiver, 1400 yard rusher, Housh was almost at 1000 yards, and one of the best offensive lines I've ever seen.

2006 was also a good but not great year.

Every other season in Carson's career was pretty average to be honest. So when the weapons were surrounding Carson he had his career year. Oddly enough when healthy weapons surrounded Dalton he was playing as well as any QB we've had here in Cincy for quite some time.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Stray

Carson had one incredible year in 2005. That year he had a 1400+ yard receiver, 1400 yard rusher, Housh was almost at 1000 yards, and one of the best offensive lines I've ever seen.

2006 was also a good but not great year.

Every other season in Carson's career was pretty average to be honest. So when the weapons were surrounding Carson he had his career year. Oddly enough when healthy weapons surrounded Dalton he was playing as well as any QB we've had here in Cincy for quite some time.

Carson had an arm that Dalton can only dream of. That is the difference between the two for me. I am not sure Dalton can ever be a +20 TD/INT guy like Palmer was before he had his career altered by his knee injury (he never extended that front leg again on a throw, leaving the ball high on most throws and it also left him weary in the collapsing pocket).

Still, I just don't know that I like wasting AJ Green with a guy who has a big arm. Maybe that is just me.

[5TimeWSChamps]

I'll go to the grave believing Kimo Von Oelhoffen cost the Bengals a Super Bowl

[camisadelgolf]

And Kimo Von Oelhoffen will go to his grave with a Super Bowl ring.

[RiverRat13]

Originally Posted by Stray

Carson had one incredible year in 2005. That year he had a 1400+ yard receiver, 1400 yard rusher, Housh was almost at 1000 yards, and one of the best offensive lines I've ever seen.

2006 was also a good but not great year.

Every other season in Carson's career was pretty average to be honest. So when the weapons were surrounding Carson he had his career year. Oddly enough when healthy weapons surrounded Dalton he was playing as well as any QB we've had here in Cincy for quite some time.

Carson was a top 5 QB in 2006 and a top 5/6 QB in 2007.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2006