2013 Bengals Discussion

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

Well you specifically said there weren't 16 quarterbacks you'd take ahead of him. Which of those 16 would you argue he's been better than so far?

Can he get better? Sure. So can pretty much everyone on that list. Who would you see him providing more value than over the next 3 years?

I'm not sure we disagree as a whole. My disagreement was mainly with another poster who said his first two years were "Crazy good."

But on the whole, I don't think even a Matt Schaub helps a team get to the Super Bowl. He may not detract from their chances, but if everything else on the team has to be elite because the quarterback is just above average, it strikes me as a flawed plan.

I wouldn't trade him for Josh Freeman for sure. RG3's career is in limbo. I'm not sold on QBs who are 5'10", and I don't want he 2012 version of Phillip Rivers.

Dalton is adequate for now and I'm open to looking for an upgrade if it presents itself but we have a lot bigger holes to fill than QB

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

I wouldn't trade him for Josh Freeman for sure. RG3's career is in limbo. I'm not sold on QBs who are 5'10", and I don't want he 2012 version of Phillip Rivers.

Dalton is adequate for now and I'm open to looking for an upgrade if it presents itself but we have a lot bigger holes to fill than QB

Big Ben was pretty bad in his first few years in the league. I believe he won a Super Bowl while posting the worst QB rating in SB history. I am not saying that Andy can get to Ben's status, but I think to rail on a guy who got the team to back to back play off appearances in his first two years is pretty comical.

I think right now he is a pretty middle of the pack QB. His arm strength is a little on the weaker side, but he can make plays with his feet that other strong armed QB's can't. For right now I like him and am happy he is the Bengals QB. That may change with time, but I think we need to give him a little more leeway to develop.

[RiverRat13]

John Clayton is reporting that the Bengals have the most cap room for 2013 at $55.1 million. Can't wait for Hobson's first article saying how they probably won't be able to re-sign Johnson and Smith because they are up against the cap...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2012...t-cap-strategy

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Big Ben was pretty bad in his first few years in the league. I believe he won a Super Bowl while posting the worst QB rating in SB history. I am not saying that Andy can get to Ben's status, but I think to rail on a guy who got the team to back to back play off appearances in his first two years is pretty comical.

I think right now he is a pretty middle of the pack QB. His arm strength is a little on the weaker side, but he can make plays with his feet that other strong armed QB's can't. For right now I like him and am happy he is the Bengals QB. That may change with time, but I think we need to give him a little more leeway to develop.

Yes, I was at that Super Bowl and the QB that Andy would like to become, Matt Hasselbeck, outplayed Ben bigtime

[Joseph]

Originally Posted by RiverRat13

John Clayton is reporting that the Bengals have the most cap room for 2013 at $55.1 million. Can't wait for Hobson's first article saying how they probably won't be able to re-sign Johnson and Smith because they are up against the cap...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2012...t-cap-strategy

Are there any free agents that would be an upgrade? Any good RB or MLB?

[Ohayou]

Originally Posted by Joseph

Are there any free agents that would be an upgrade? Any good RB or MLB?

Reggie Bush

I'd rather build through the draft, though. Just look at last year's class...

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Yes, I was at that Super Bowl and the QB that Andy would like to become, Matt Hasselbeck, outplayed Ben bigtime

He isn't a Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Brees, but Big Ben wasn't great when he won a SB, neither was Eli. Guys like Rex Grossman, Hasselbeck, Brad Johnson, and Dilfer have all gotten teams to the Super Bowl.

He sure wasn't good against the Texans but the INT was a well thrown ball that AJ didn't have his head turned around for and the deep ball was thrown a tad too far. In reality, if those two plays end differently we may be singing a whole different tune about Dalton.

[LoganBuck]

They can franchise Andre Smith at $9.6 Million. But they have plenty of space left in this current league year to get a deal done with him and Michael Johnson. The cap number for a DE and lets face it, Michael Johnson isn't a top 10 overall defensive end, is $10.98 Million. My guess is they get something done with both of them before they have to file for free agency.

I am unclear about the carryover rules, but I suspect that gives them the space to sign Geno Atkins to a nice extension.

[WMR]

Wasn't there some rule in the new CBA that you had to be within a certain percentage of the cap within so many years? Anyone have the details on that? If it works as intended, it should force owners like Brown to at least spend near the cap.

Of course, we'll never know what it's like to be a fan of a team that plays salary cap games to spend OVER the cap. Can you imagine?

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by Joseph

Are there any free agents that would be an upgrade? Any good RB or MLB?

There are three FA WR that would be huge upgrades: Mike Wallace, Dwayne Bowe, and Danny Amendola.

Sanu and/or Jones might be able to be a serviceable #2 in a couple years. The Bengals need a very strong #2 (borderline #1) now. The last several games exposed this fact.

Then use the draft to upgrade LB, SS, and RB, and built out depth everywhere else.

MY OFFSEASON PLAN

1. Re-sign Michael Johnson.
2. Re-sign or Franchise Andre Smith (you might get more out of him on a one-year deal) Either way can't afford to let him leave.
3. Sign a FA WR (Wallace, Bowe or Amendola)
4. Target MLB Alec Ogletree or SS Kenny Vaccaro with the first round pick.
5. If unable to sign one of the 3 FA WR, draft best WR on the board (Hunter, Patterson, Allen or Williams) with pick #35. If FA WR is signed, draft LB/SS whichever you don't address in Round 1.
6. Draft best available RB with the second 2nd round pick or 3rd round pick (a guy like Giovanni Bernard, Eddie Lacy, Kenjon Bell, Montee Ball, or Marcus Lattimore.)
7. Look to extend Geno Atkins and AJ Green
8. Try to convert Taylor Mays into a OLB.
9. Let Leonard, B.Scott, Tate, Geathers, Maualuga, Clements, and one of Newman/Pacman walk.
10. Whatever you do, keep Mike Zimmer (even if it means firing Marvin).

Also, tell Andy Dalton and Jermaine Gresham that 2013 will be their make or break year. If they don't improve, I'm looking to draft someone to push them early in 2014.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by WMR

Wasn't there some rule in the new CBA that you had to be within a certain percentage of the cap within so many years? Anyone have the details on that? If it works as intended, it should force owners like Brown to at least spend near the cap.

Of course, we'll never know what it's like to be a fan of a team that plays salary cap games to spend OVER the cap. Can you imagine?

I remember hearing about those rules. I also thought that even though rookie wages were capped, contracts were maxed out at 4 years and you had to be so many years removed in order to get an extension. That could complicate things with Green, Adkins, and yes Dalton.

The thing with spending over the cap, is it doesn't exactly work. Just off the top of my head the three highest profile FA of the past couple of years have been Asomugha, Mario Williams, and Albert Haynesworth. The last big FA that ended up being a big splash probably was Julius Peppers but those are few and far between. Two teams that got penalized over the past year were the Cowboys and the Redskins who were kinda blah if you ask me. The Redskins made the playoffs not due to FA but to RGIII and Alfred Morris, two rookies.

As to Benihana's stance on WR, Wallace and Bowe do little for me. To me it is alarming when someone plays like they were upset they didn't get a big contract, Wallace. Bowe has had some attitude issues in the past and am quite content without having a diva WR. Amendola would be a nice target but the guy just can't stay on the field.

RB, WR, LB, and S need to be addressed in the draft. I would extend Johnson, bring Gilberry back, and extend/franchise Smith.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

In reality, if those two plays end differently we may be singing a whole different tune about Dalton.

The general "we" may have. But I wouldn't. He is a limited quarterback. He is always going to be. I have been saying that since day 1.

[New York Red]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

The general "we" may have. But I wouldn't. He is a limited quarterback. He is always going to be. I have been saying that since day 1.

His #1 limitation, IMO, is pocket presence. He has none. At his height he has to be able to recognize when and where the pocket is collapsing and navigate out of it, either by stepping up or rolling out. He rarely does either. Also, at some point over the last few games he seemed to become too conscious about throwing INTs, so he started overthrowing the deep balls, or throwing them out of bounds. One other thing; he tends to lock on to one receiver way too often, completely ignoring guys who are open. Dalton has a lot to work on, for sure. The problems he has are fixable, so I guess we'll see if he's able to do that.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I remember hearing about those rules. I also thought that even though rookie wages were capped, contracts were maxed out at 4 years and you had to be so many years removed in order to get an extension. That could complicate things with Green, Adkins, and yes Dalton.

The thing with spending over the cap, is it doesn't exactly work. Just off the top of my head the three highest profile FA of the past couple of years have been Asomugha, Mario Williams, and Albert Haynesworth. The last big FA that ended up being a big splash probably was Julius Peppers but those are few and far between. Two teams that got penalized over the past year were the Cowboys and the Redskins who were kinda blah if you ask me. The Redskins made the playoffs not due to FA but to RGIII and Alfred Morris, two rookies.

As to Benihana's stance on WR, Wallace and Bowe do little for me. To me it is alarming when someone plays like they were upset they didn't get a big contract, Wallace. Bowe has had some attitude issues in the past and am quite content without having a diva WR. Amendola would be a nice target but the guy just can't stay on the field.

RB, WR, LB, and S need to be addressed in the draft. I would extend Johnson, bring Gilberry back, and extend/franchise Smith.

I would disagree with one thing - the FA WR from last offseason paid BIG dividends to their teams this year:

Pierre Garcon: Played half the season because of injury but still had 633 yards and 4 TDs (full year would be 1200 yards and 8 TDs)
Vincent Jackson: 72 Rec, 1384 yards, 8 TDs
Brandon Marshall (granted he was traded, but still...): 118 Rec, 1508 yards, 11 TDs

Despite playing only 9 games, Garcon played a big part in RGIII's success and the Redskins made the playoffs.

V-Jax and Marshall were two of the top 10 WR in the league this year. And Jackson had Josh Freeman throwing to him.

You're telling me the Bengals couldn't use one of those given Dalton's struggles?

Yes, Wallace is pissed about his contract and may be seeking too much money.
Yes, Bowe has attitude issues (he's also performed well without ever having a good QB).
Yes, Amendola has had injuries this season. But he's been incredibly productive despite that fact, and has no offensive help.

All three guys have warts, hence they won't get record-breaking deals (at least Bowe and Amendola won't). So go sign one of them Mr. Brown and give this team the talent it needs. Sanu, Jones, and anyone we would draft this year is going to need at least 2-3 years to turn into what these guys are right now. That is not time we can afford to waste. This is the window, make it happen. Bring home the Bengals version of Mat Latos or Shin Soo-Choo and compete while the window is open.

At a minimum we'll get to see what Dalton is really made of with real weapons.

[Redhook]

So, Andre Smith just got arrested at the Atlanta airport for possession of a gun. Nice. He might not be the brightest bulb on the tree, but at least he has good timing!