Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

[RedFanAlways1966]

Originally Posted by TRF

So a player busts out, one everyone on this board including yourself touted as a prime candidate to do so just a few years ago when he was a Red, and now it HAS to be HGH?

wow.

You mean BUSTED OUT in a big way. Went from a launching pad (GABP) to Toronto (not Seattle by any means, but just sayin').

It has happened before (CLEANLY), but you cannot question those who raise an eyebrow and wonder how/why? Especially in today's world. Those who question do not have proof... nor do those who say he is clean.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Honest question, what kind of magic teaching do you think Scott Rolen has that Dusty Baker, Brook Jacoby, Bryan Price and Mack Jenkins don't have? Scott Rolen doesn't have some secret that those guys don't know about in teaching the game. Leadership by example? Sure, I can buy that to a small extent. But do you really think Rolen significantly, or even slightly altered the skillset of any of the Reds players that no one else was going to be able to do? And if so, what makes you believe that?

For one he's a player and is teaching by example, not by lecturing or showing... example.

Often overlooked is the ability for messages to be gathered via osmosis in a professional 1 to 1 relationship, players tend to listen to other players more and teaching is not solely confined to the field,it's the clubhouse, the plane, the bus the dugout.

Hod Eller said in 1920 that he learned more in 5 minutes about pitching from Slim Sallee than he had learned his whole life. Read any interview with players after they retired and you hear time and time again about small things that they picked up from guys they played with.

It's not a myth it's a reality that is not logged and tracked and posted on the web, it's life experience and the ones who generally poo poo it have little of it.

[Johnny Footstool]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Honest question, what kind of magic teaching do you think Scott Rolen has that Dusty Baker, Brook Jacoby, Bryan Price and Mack Jenkins don't have? Scott Rolen doesn't have some secret that those guys don't know about in teaching the game. Leadership by example? Sure, I can buy that to a small extent. But do you really think Rolen significantly, or even slightly altered the skillset of any of the Reds players that no one else was going to be able to do? And if so, what makes you believe that?

The whole coach vs. peer dynamic. Coaches tell you what to do; peers model what to do. For a lot of people, that's extremely important.

[WMR]

I knew this thread wouldn't disappoint...

[Johnny Footstool]

So a player busts out, one everyone on this board including yourself touted as a prime candidate to do so just a few years ago when he was a Red, and now it HAS to be HGH?

wow.

Yeah, because the 90s and the 2000s happened, and because PEDs are a reality.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Honest question, what kind of magic teaching do you think Scott Rolen has that Dusty Baker, Brook Jacoby, Bryan Price and Mack Jenkins don't have?

Different people respond differently to different leaders.
As others said, some players respond more positively when a future HOF like Rolen comes in (someone they watched as a kid) and practices what he preaches. Dusty's last big season was 1982, and I think he retired after 86.
Many of the Reds's players weren't even born when Dusty was playing.. so having an old man say "This is how we did it.." isn't as effective as seeing Rolen actually do it..


I've seen it in non-sports areas in life too. We all have. Some people have a gift to come into a job and get everyone a lot more motivated. I don't have that gift , but I've seen it happen. People can often relate to a leader that does it by example. Dusty can't come into a game and go from 1st to 3rd on a single, obviously..

Edit: I'd also like to say, in an ideal world, everyone gives 100% at their job.. However, that's not reality.. Heck, most of us are on Redszone during the working day, so we aren't maxing our worktime WAR. Numerous reasons why people slip to giving 70% or less.. Ballplayers are human, just like us.

[TRF]

I don't discount the intangibles at all. In fact, I was glad Rolen was a Red. What I don't like is the following:

The Reds development department, for years has misread a player's ability based on physical tool-sets instead of mental ones. Sometimes a player must play within his abilities, and that isn't to say he doesn't have value. the knock on EE in the minors was his defense. it never got better, yet the Reds never put him in a position defensively where he could succeed. Toronto did. Yes, mostly at DH, but he has about 90 games at 1B too. and he's acquitted himself there just fine.

I do think players, especially younger players learn from example. I also think the Reds have 2 guys that do that now in BP and Votto. In fact, make it three and throw in Hanigan. Bruce may well be on his way to joining that group.

However, why is it that Rolen is lauded for his leadership, while his physical skills were long since past their prime, but Arroyo's were not? Certainly he's been a workhorse, goes about his business the right way. You never hear of Arroyo in trouble, and he grinded out a year in which he had Mono and still nearly pitched 200 innings. But Arroyo is generally loathed here. I find that odd.

And yes, I know PED's are still a part of the game. but players are tested regularly and there hasn't been a mention of EE in regard to them. If it happens chastise me, but until it happens, I'll try to enjoy the games played without the crooked eye.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

He was available to play the OF right after he got DFA'ed.

If you want to argue that the Reds should have picked him up then, fine.

But once he was DFA'ed and made available to every team in baseball to pick up free of charge (or close to it), that ends the trade value right there.

With Stewart's DFA on top of the DFAs of both EdE and Josh Roenicke, we can finally close the books on this deal and the circular logic that seems to follow.

In the time between the deal and his DFA, EdE put up a 2.0 WAR (ref, baseball-reference.com) for Toronto.
Stewart put up -1.8 WAR before he was DFA'ed.
Roenicke put up -0.7 in WAR before he was DFA'ed by Toronto.

That's a total of -0.5 WAR for the Blue Jays and others in the deal.

Rolen put up 6.9 WAR in 3 1/4 seasons with the Reds. If you only include the WAR he earned while under the original contract (before re-signing with the Reds), his WAR stood at 5.1.

So Jocketty gave up three players who would, collectively, accumulate less than replacement level results while garnering a 3B who performed at an All-Star level.

Paging Captain Obvious. Captain Obvious, please pick up the courtesy phone at the front desk.

Ummm...captain obvious, you're overlooking the entire basis of the argument. You're looking at what DID happen, not the situation at the time of the trade. We didn't know that Edwin would get worse and be DFA. We didn't know that he'd vastly improve and turn into a monster. We didn't know that Stewart would fall flat on his face.

What we DID know was that Stewart was a highly regarded prospect. Regardless of what some here thought about him, he was highly regarded by scouts. We also knew that Edwin was a solid hitter but VERY disappointing at third defensively. We also knew that he was quite athletic. My opinion is that he would've made a very capable LF'er if given a shot. We also knew that Rolen's best years were behind him, he's got a very shaky injury history and that he was looking to leave Toronto for his preference to a midwestern team. We also know that those options were pretty fairly limited.

Bringing in a Rolen to that clubhouse was a fantastic move. No question. The only question I had was that Walt overpaid to make it happen. Not in hindsight, but with what we knew at that time. Walt had the leverage (Rolen wanted out, preferred the Reds, was damaged goods, past his prime) and the Toronto GM made him overpay IMO.

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Ummm...captain obvious, you're overlooking the entire basis of the argument. You're looking at what DID happen, not the situation at the time of the trade. We didn't know that Edwin would get worse and be DFA. We didn't know that he'd vastly improve and turn into a monster. We didn't know that Stewart would fall flat on his face.

Some on this very board that both of those were distinct possibilities, in fact, so I cannot buy your assertion at all.

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

What we DID know was that Stewart was a highly regarded prospect. Regardless of what some here thought about him, he was highly regarded by scouts.

Was he a top 100 prospect? He wasn't. Did some scouts like him? Yes, some. Not all. He wasn't the level of Cingrani, Corcino, nor Stephenson. He was, at best, a Chad Rogers type.

He was, however, a pitching prospect in a system, at that time, that desperately needed even a MOR starting prospect. Red fans and Redszone in particular (including me) overvalued him a great deal.

In other words, we were wrong, and Walt Jocketty was right.

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

We also knew that Edwin was a solid hitter but VERY disappointing at third defensively. We also knew that he was quite athletic.

Okay. What does that matter at all to the trade? That the Reds could have paid less? What's less than below replacement? At the times of their various DFAs, each player was well below major league average to less than replacement.

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

My opinion is that he would've made a very capable LF'er if given a shot.

If EdE is such a great athlete and an apparently great LF, why was he still a DH in Toronto even after they had major problems filling OF voids the past two seasons?

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

We also knew that Rolen's best years were behind him, he's got a very shaky injury history and that he was looking to leave Toronto for his preference to a midwestern team. We also know that those options were pretty fairly limited.

Okay. Again, that has little to do with assessing the deal at hand. The fact is, Rolen had a 5.1 WAR in the first year and a quarter after the trade (before free agency would have hit). That's All-Star level production at 3B, even if his best years were behind him.

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Bringing in a Rolen to that clubhouse was a fantastic move. No question. The only question I had was that Walt overpaid to make it happen. Not in hindsight, but with what we knew at that time. Walt had the leverage (Rolen wanted out, preferred the Reds, was damaged goods, past his prime) and the Toronto GM made him overpay IMO.

Again, "we" were wrong, and Jocketty was right.

It was proven on the field.

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by TRF

So you count ALL of Rolen's WAR but only a little of EE's. that's pretty damn selective. EE's total WAR with toronto is 6.0 and he'll actually play next year.

From my original post:

If you only include the WAR he earned while under the original contract (before re-signing with the Reds), his WAR stood at 5.1.

5.1 > 2.0

Again, easy.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

My opinion is that he would've made a very capable LF'er if given a shot.

3 games 3 putouts all as a sub

Here are the guys holding him back since he went to Toronto

LF

GAMES                            G     
1    Travis Snider               218   
2    Rajai Davis                 142   
3    Eric Thames                 141   
4    Jose Bautista               113   
5    Fred Lewis                  110   
6    Corey Patterson              89   
7    Juan Rivera                  70   
8    Joe Inglett                  36   
9    Jeremy Reed                  14   
T10  Russ Adams                    8   
T10  David Dellucci                8

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

When the trade was first made I was upset at first, because of my expectations for Stewart. But my opinion completely changed after I gave it more thought. Scott Rolen was always one of my favorite players in the game, even when he was a Cardinal. It was a great honor to watch him play for the Reds. It turned out to be a great deal for the Reds as Rolen played a major role in the Reds turning things around. I have no regrets at all about that trade, even if EdE continues to do what he did in 2012.

Don't short change yourself. IIRC, the needle was much closer to "criminally insane" than "upset at first" at the time. Unsure of the rest of the timeline but I believe there were multiple calls for Walt's head on and after that day.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

From my original post:


If you only include the WAR he earned while under the original contract (before re-signing with the Reds), his WAR stood at 5.1.
5.1 > 2.0

Again, easy.

EE got a new contract as well. You want to cherry pick the times fine.. both have played the same number of seasons since the trade. One has played 100 more games, hit 52 more HR's and looks to be an offensive force going forward, one is contemplating retirement. BTW, if you ask TOR who won the trade, i bet they say they did. And I am pretty sure the current TOR FO, which gave him his current contract also know more about baseball than we do. It's all subjective, but they have a 29 year old power hitting 1B/DH, that is athletic enough to play all over, has logged significant time at 3B and 1B and is willing to play where needed.

Originally Posted by westofyou

3 games 3 putouts all as a sub

Here are the guys holding him back since he went to Toronto

LF

GAMES                            G     
1    Travis Snider               218   
2    Rajai Davis                 142   
3    Eric Thames                 141   
4    Jose Bautista               113   
5    Fred Lewis                  110   
6    Corey Patterson              89   
7    Juan Rivera                  70   
8    Joe Inglett                  36   
9    Jeremy Reed                  14   
T10  Russ Adams                    8   
T10  David Dellucci                8

.280 .384 .557 .941 41 HR's 110 RBI.

[RANDY IN INDY]

Originally Posted by westofyou

For one he's a player and is teaching by example, not by lecturing or showing... example.

Often overlooked is the ability for messages to be gathered via osmosis in a professional 1 to 1 relationship, players tend to listen to other players more and teaching is not solely confined to the field,it's the clubhouse, the plane, the bus the dugout.

Hod Eller said in 1920 that he learned more in 5 minutes about pitching from Slim Sallee than he had learned his whole life. Read any interview with players after they retired and you hear time and time again about small things that they picked up from guys they played with.

It's not a myth it's a reality that is not logged and tracked and posted on the web, it's life experience and the ones who generally poo poo it have little of it.

Well said and right on the mark!

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by TRF

.280 .384 .557 .941 41 HR's 110 RBI.