Pirates DFA Zach Stewart

[TRF]

For the most part, no one here poo poo'd getting Rolen, just argued the cost. I did come out against the trade because I thought Rolen's on field contribution would be minimal. And for the most part, I was right. He was healthy for most of one season as a Red, 2010. In just over three seasons as a Red he has 36 HR's or 5 fewer than EE had last year alone.

MAYBE his intagibles brought the team together. Or maybe Arroyo, Cueto, Leake, Bailey Wood and even Volquez had something to do with the turnaround. The pitching in 2010 was MUCH better than 2009. Now maybe Rolen's defense had something to do with that. Maybe. Or maybe they just pitched a lot better. But Orlando Cabrera was the SS in 2010, and that was a downgrade from Janish defensively, and marginally better offensively. So i don't think the defense change from 2009 to 2010 was all that significant. Yes Rolen is better than EE, but Janish > OCab. to me that makes it close to a wash.

Sorry, but the improved pitching in 2010, plus an MVP season from Votto were the reasons for the Reds being successful, far more than Scott Rolen.

[Steve4192]

Originally Posted by TRF

For the most part, no one here poo poo'd getting Rolen, just argued the cost. I did come out against the trade because I thought Rolen's on field contribution would be minimal. And for the most part, I was right. He was healthy for most of one season as a Red, 2010. In just over three seasons as a Red he has 36 HR's or 5 fewer than EE had last year alone.

MAYBE his intagibles brought the team together. Or maybe Arroyo, Cueto, Leake, Bailey Wood and even Volquez had something to do with the turnaround. The pitching in 2010 was MUCH better than 2009. Now maybe Rolen's defense had something to do with that. Maybe. Or maybe they just pitched a lot better. But Orlando Cabrera was the SS in 2010, and that was a downgrade from Janish defensively, and marginally better offensively. So i don't think the defense change from 2009 to 2010 was all that significant. Yes Rolen is better than EE, but Janish > OCab. to me that makes it close to a wash.

Sorry, but the improved pitching in 2010, plus an MVP season from Votto were the reasons for the Reds being successful, far more than Scott Rolen.

To be fair, Rolen also had a lot to do with the Reds' success last season. He was one of the guys who stepped up big time while Votto was out, posting a 922 OPS in July and a 925 in August. He sucked the rest of the season, but in that critical two-month stretch he was money.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by Steve4192

To be fair, Rolen also had a lot to do with the Reds' success last season. He was one of the guys who stepped up big time while Votto was out, posting a 922 OPS in July and a 925 in August. He sucked the rest of the season, but in that critical two-month stretch he was money.

No he didn't. That's cherry picking 2 months out of 6, and the other 4 he was beyond atrocious. So, while he might have been money those two months, the Reds won games in the other 4 without him.

Wins count in April too.

And the BIGGEST reason the Reds won in 2012 was the pitching. We all know that.

[M2]

Originally Posted by TRF

MAYBE his intagibles brought the team together.

No, his tangibles brought the team together - solid middle lineup bat, excellent glove, smart baserunning. In August and September of 2009 and throughout 2010, Rolen was exactly what the Reds needed on the field. He was an essential cog.

His intangibles are paying off now in that the Reds can boast a crew of seasoned, smart ballplayers able to carry forward the lessons they learned while playing with Rolen.

[M2]

Originally Posted by TRF

And the BIGGEST reason the Reds won in 2012 was the pitching. We all know that.

Sure, but that doesn't mean pitching was the only reason. A lot of field players made significant contributions too. Rolen stepping when Votto got injured was a big boost to the team. Overall, he helped the cause.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by M2

No, his tangibles brought the team together - solid middle lineup bat, excellent glove, smart baserunning. In August and September of 2009 and throughout 2010, Rolen was exactly what the Reds needed on the field. He was an essential cog.

His intangibles are paying off now in that the Reds can boast a crew of seasoned, smart ballplayers able to carry forward the lessons they learned while playing with Rolen.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/201...n-ended-rolen/

Votto gave Rolen the ultimate compliment.

“I got everything I needed from him playing beside him. I learned a tremendous amount. You can always learn, but the two or three years I had with him were not wasted. I tell you what: He changed my path as a player. He was a shining example of the kind of player I want to be."

Of course we will never know, but did Scott Rolen's quiet mentoring and influence on Votto result in that MVP year? In my opinion he changed the culture of this team, and the Reds I see now are hungry, prepared and expect to win. The teams of the not so recent past? Not so much. We had guys, guys we love, leaving early at the end of the season, just for example.

[TRF]

Yes, in 2010, Rolen was better than EE all around. How much better offensively? well they SLG about the same, but Rolen was far better at getting on base. Going forward from today, If EE is 80% of what he was last year for the next 4 years, TOR wins the trade.

So yes, in 2010, Rolen did make a significant tangible contribution. The pitching made more of a contribution IMO. But as much as Rolen improve the defense, OCab did his best to drag it back down, and at a more important position defensively. The starting pitching went from a 4.50 ERA in 2009 to a 4.05 ERA in 2010. that is significant. In 2011 it was back up to 4.47.

The pitching has been the driving force behind the success or lack of for the Reds the past 3 seasons.

As for the intangibles, I have no doubts there. Both BP and Votto have mentioned Rolen in numerous interviews. Clearly he had a massive effect on them in how they approach the game. Or perhaps Votto would have been exactly what he is without him. BP seemed to grow up almost overnight, especially in regards to how he treats fans.

Bruce still hasn't taken that superstar step everyone seems to think he's on the verge of taking.

And I go back to a point i made earlier... Why isn't Arroyo given the same credit for helping turn the pitching around? His work ethic has never been questioned, He pitched hurt all of 2011 (Mono), never at full strength and he never missed a turn, because the team needed him. The example he set in 2011 could certainly be a tipping point for a team that followed that season with one in which NO starting pitcher missed a turn.

I'm glad Rolen was a Red. I do think the Reds overpaid for him, and there are some trades recently that suggest that. Ichiro to the Yankees comes to mind off the top of my head, but TOR got 3 players for one with a history of back and shoulder problems. And said player wanted out of Toronto. It doesn't matter what happened after the trade. It doesn't matter that after 2010 Rolen was at best a part time player, or that EE was DFA'd. At the time, EE was moving to the AL where he could DH if he had no position. Roenicke was a hard thrower and Stewart was the Red's best pitching prospect. That's a lot for 34 year old 3B on the downside of his career.

[M2]

Originally Posted by TRF

Yes, in 2010, Rolen was better than EE all around. How much better offensively? well they SLG about the same, but Rolen was far better at getting on base. Going forward from today, If EE is 80% of what he was last year for the next 4 years, TOR wins the trade.

No, because Toronto released EdE to the wind after 2010. The books is closed on this trade. The Reds flat out won the thing two years ago and anything Rolen provided in 2011 and 2012 was gravy. Whatever EdE does in his reincarnation as a DH in Toronto has no bearing the Reds, who don't have a DH job to offer.

Originally Posted by TRF

And I go back to a point i made earlier... Why isn't Arroyo given the same credit for helping turn the pitching around?

A) You don't need to convince me that Arroyo's impact on the pitching staff has been seriously undercredited over the years (both in terms of actual performance and in terms of providing a role model for how to take the ball every 5th day and in how to work with what you've got on a given day).

B) Rolen's addition immediately shifted the Reds from a struggling club to a winning one. Again, August 23, 2009 is the day the lights went on. Scott Rolen was the switch.

[mdccclxix]

Rolen was hitting really well in Toronto when he was traded. Ichiro when healthy over the prior 20 months? notasmuch.

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by M2

Rolen's addition immediately shifted the Reds from a struggling club to a winning one. Again, August 23, 2009 is the day the lights went on. Scott Rolen was the switch.

You don't need to convince me that Rolen was one factor in the Reds' emergence in 2010.

It seems a pretty unsustainable argument, though, to argue that he was the single stimulus when there were so many other parts of the equation that played an important role, including the maturation of the pitching, the cultivation of a more dependable farm system, etc. History just doesn't work that way. It's more complicated than that, and I don't think the testimony of Votto changes the account we need to tell. "Great Man" theories of events are always tempting, but they are usually wrong -- or at least strikingly incomplete.

[Vottomatic]

It's kind of weird. But even though he was only here a short time, I consider Rolen a big time Red.

Probably because of the emergence of the team as a yearly contender. I credit Scotty with that. I hope they offer him a position in the organization. He clearly has leadership abilities that need tapped into.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by RedEye

You don't need to convince me that Rolen was one factor in the Reds' emergence in 2010.

It seems a pretty unsustainable argument, though, to argue that he was the single stimulus when there were so many other parts of the equation that played an important role, including the maturation of the pitching, the cultivation of a more dependable farm system, etc. History just doesn't work that way. It's more complicated than that, and I don't think the testimony of Votto changes the account we need to tell. "Great Man" theories of events are always tempting, but they are usually wrong -- or at least strikingly incomplete.

True, the pitching has improved immensely during this time, partly due to much better defense, of which Rolen has been no small factor. Many here, when drooling over EdE's last year, forget how terrible he was at 3B, when every ball to hot corner was an adventure.

Pitching is the main reason this team is much improved, no doubt.

I see Scott Rolen as the Pied Piper to this group of guys. The rest of the team certainly is talented, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, etc. Rolen taught them a different tune than what they had been hearing.

[edabbs44]

There is so much that goes into a team that we are unaware of and it makes discussions like this largely incomplete. You know what is a fact? This team is overall much better since Rolen showed up and we really shouldn't be regretting anyone that the Reds lost as part of the acquisition. For that reason this was a very good trade for the Reds. I'll take the current structure of this team over the unknown of Rolen not being acquired.

[westofyou]

Sometimes one change to a group changes the group, it's possible in baseball (Don Hoak Pirates 59-60, sometimes it's a band (Mick Taylor in Brian Jones buried)

[PuffyPig]

Originally Posted by TRF

No he didn't. That's cherry picking 2 months out of 6, and the other 4 he was beyond atrocious. So, while he might have been money those two months, the Reds won games in the other 4 without him.

Wins count in April too.

And the BIGGEST reason the Reds won in 2012 was the pitching. We all know that.

I think you underestimate those two months when Votto was missing.

At a time when we lost the best hitter in baseball, and everyone was feeling we'd have trouble staying in the race, Rolen came back and OPS'ed over .900 during those two months. IIRC, we won 19 of 22 games or something like that, and buried the competition.

Sometimes it's about timing.