Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

[Red Swagger]

11. Billy Hamilton
51. Robert Stephenson
66. Tony Cingrani

No Corcino is a bit of a surprise, you could also make a case for Jesse Winker

[Salukifan2]

I'm a little surprised myself that Corcino didn't make it. Jesse Winker only played short season ball so he wouldn't be on the list.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

I'm a little surprised myself that Corcino didn't make it. Jesse Winker only played short season ball so he wouldn't be on the list.

There were quite a few guys in short season ball on the list.

I am always skeptical on the MLB.com lists because of the way that they are generated.

I can't say exactly how the Top 100 is generated, but the Top 50 is generated by Jonathan Mayo asking scouts/baseball professionals of other types for their personal Top 30 lists and then assigning them points (30 points for a first place vote and 1 point for a 30th place vote).

Ideally, everyone polled could have the exact same #31 prospect and he never shows up on the list, but one guy polled could be in love with a guy and rank him 15th and no one else would have had him in their Top 50, but that guy is considered a better prospect in this kind of system.

[Superdude]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

I'm a little surprised myself that Corcino didn't make it. Jesse Winker only played short season ball so he wouldn't be on the list.

I'm sure there were probably guys like that on the list. Winker isn't the freak athlete and doesn't have glowing draft position to his name though, so he'll probably have to prove himself a bit more. He'll get his share of love if he keeps hitting like he did last year.

[Salukifan2]

^very much agree

Also, i wouldn't expect to see tons of reds players on the list in the coming years or for the reds overall system to be ranked to highly. That is unless Walt has changed his style of building teams. His MO in st louis wasn't really to build from within once he got his team, and in the end i think that is what led to his dismissal. For the sake of the reds long term success i hope he has changed his opinion on that.

[Scrap Irony]

Seven pennants in 13 years isn't a poor MO, Dude. That's flat getting it done.

BTW, the Cardinals' system was one of the most productive in the game under Jocketty.

[Salukifan2]

No it wasn't. Before an argument starts please look at every cardinals draft from 2000-2007. They were absolutly awful. With the exception of Yadi there were no impact position players to be drafted and come through the system under Walt in a normal amount of time. Yes jay and Craig were drafted by walt but neither was a major league starter till they were 27.

You make alot of valid points when we talk, but when Walt Jocketty left st. louis he left a minor league system that was in shambles.

Also, i didn't say he had a poor MO is said that while he was in STL it wasn't his MO to build from within, especially in the last few years. That point is undeniable.

Impactful players drafted by Walt with cards from 2000-2007 (by impactful, i mean starters): Jon Jay, Allen Craig, Colby Rasmus, JAime Garcia, Dan Haren, Yadi.

2 of those didn't amount to anything with the cards, and rasmus won't be a starter for long. Garcia has had one good year and one mediocre year. That production from 7 years of drafting is not "flat getting it done"

[Scrap Irony]

All-Star players drafted and/or developed during Jocketty's tenure as Card GM:

JD Drew
Placido Polanco
Rick Ankiel
Matt Morris
Albert Pujols
Dan Haren
Yadi Molina
Adam Wainwright
Colby Rasmus
David Freese
Jaime Garcia
Lance Lynn

That's around 40 All-Star berths, fwiw, a few MVPs, a couple WS MVPs, a Cy Young, and a couple ROY.

[Salukifan2]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

All-Star players drafted and/or developed during Jocketty's tenure as Card GM:

JD Drew
Placido Polanco
Rick Ankiel
Matt Morris
Albert Pujols
Dan Haren
Yadi Molina
Adam Wainwright
Colby Rasmus
David Freese
Jaime Garcia
Lance Lynn

That's around 40 All-Star berths, fwiw, a few MVPs, a couple WS MVPs, a Cy Young, and a couple ROY.

david freese had nothing to do with jocketty. That was a mozeliak move. Lance Lynn was not developed by Jocketty. Lance Lynn was drafted by mozeliak in 2008.

Polanco, Drew, Ankiel, Pujols, and Morris were all drafted before 2000. Ankiel is also not an impact mlb player. Like i said in other convos we've had, Please read what i am writing. Ive said the whole time that his post 2000 draft history with the cardinals was awful. It was. Undeniable.

Jocketty was the architect of the cardinals rise in the early to mid 2000's and the architect of its regression between 2006 and 2010. With the trough of the regression coming in 2007. After the retirements of Walker and Sanders their were no in house replacements for them and the cards had no prsopects that they could trade to acquire new outfielders. Outfield is only one example of this.

Though the cards won the world series in 2006 everyone know that they were at best a mediocre team. The cards won 100 games in both '04 and '05. 83 in '06 and then 78 in '07. In those two years Jocketty's major acquisitions and call ups were: Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Larry Bigbie, Scott Spezio, Adam Wainwright, Juan Encarnacion, Aaron Miles, Braden Looper, Mike Maroth, Joel Pineiro, John Rodrigues, Ronnie Beliard, Jeff WEaver, and Ludwick

Outside of Weaver, Spezio, and Reyes playing out of their minds in '06 playoffs, like whole team, the only one who has been a mainstay productive mlb starter is Adam Wainwright. Luddy has had one great season in '08, a mediocre one in '09, two awful ones in '10 and '11 and then a very good one in '12. Therefore, he does not count as a mainstay productive MLB starter.

Jocketty has done an impressive job with the reds, especially this past season. But Jocketty left the cardinals in '07 with Carpenter and Wainwright the only starting pitchers that could be counted on. Pujols and Yadi the only reliable infielders. And nothing in the outfield except for Ankiel who was good for one season. On top of that the only player in the farm system of any Renown was Rasmus.

Jocketty, with the reds, had nothing to do with any of your current young players as far as drafting goes. Mez, Frazier, and Cozart were all '07 before he was with them. Bruce the year before and obviously votto before that. He signed Chapman, and an eception is Leake, sorry. but i don't even think he will be anything more than an inning eating reliever anyway. He did, however, trade away his young talent for Latos and Choo Which is very similar to what he did in St. louis ex: Haren for Mulder. Mortenson for Walker. Polanco for Rolen. It is his MO. undeniable.

[757690]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

No it wasn't. Before an argument starts please look at every cardinals draft from 2000-2007. They were absolutly awful. With the exception of Yadi there were no impact position players to be drafted and come through the system under Walt in a normal amount of time. Yes jay and Craig were drafted by walt but neither was a major league starter till they were 27.

You make alot of valid points when we talk, but when Walt Jocketty left st. louis he left a minor league system that was in shambles.

Also, i didn't say he had a poor MO is said that while he was in STL it wasn't his MO to build from within, especially in the last few years. That point is undeniable.

Impactful players drafted by Walt with cards from 2000-2007 (by impactful, i mean starters): Jon Jay, Allen Craig, Colby Rasmus, JAime Garcia, Dan Haren, Yadi.

2 of those didn't amount to anything with the cards, and rasmus won't be a starter for long. Garcia has had one good year and one mediocre year. That production from 7 years of drafting is not "flat getting it done"

You're right, his drafts from that period didn't amount to much. But most of that was due to draft position. A team that is in contention for 14 years is going to be at the end of the draft for most of those years. Sure, he didn't have a lot of hits, but he really didn't miss a lot of guys either. The good ones were gone most of the time when the Cardinal name was called on draft day.

Btw, Freese was acquired in 2007. Pretty sure Jocketty made that trade. But, again. He's not a player from the draft, which makes your point.

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

david freese had nothing to do with jocketty. That was a mozeliak move. Lance Lynn was not developed by Jocketty. Lance Lynn was drafted by mozeliak in 2008.

I'm wrong about Lynn and Freese. The rest, however, are all All-Stars drafted or developed under Jocketty.

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Polanco, Drew, Ankiel, Pujols, and Morris were all drafted before 2000. Ankiel is also not an impact mlb player. Like i said in other convos we've had, Please read what i am writing. Ive said the whole time that his post 2000 draft history with the cardinals was awful. It was. Undeniable.

No, it's not undeniable. I'm denying it. Considering their drafting position, the Cardinals have done a great job drafting contributors. He won seven pennants and a World Series in 12 years as the Cardinal GM. He was responsible for drafting players who were picked as All-Stars almost 40 times in those years. What more do you want?

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Jocketty was the architect of the cardinals rise in the early to mid 2000's and the architect of its regression between 2006 and 2010. With the trough of the regression coming in 2007. After the retirements of Walker and Sanders their were no in house replacements for them and the cards had no prsopects that they could trade to acquire new outfielders. Outfield is only one example of this.

Regression? What regression? They won a World Series in that time.

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Though the cards won the world series in 2006 everyone know that they were at best a mediocre team. The cards won 100 games in both '04 and '05. 83 in '06 and then 78 in '07. In those two years Jocketty's major acquisitions and call ups were: Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Larry Bigbie, Scott Spezio, Adam Wainwright, Juan Encarnacion, Aaron Miles, Braden Looper, Mike Maroth, Joel Pineiro, John Rodrigues, Ronnie Beliard, Jeff WEaver.

Outside of Weaver and Spezio playing out of their minds in '06 playoffs like whole team, the only one who that has been a mainstay productive mlb starter is Adam Wainwright.

Again, he won the World Series so he gets credit for doing the right thing that year.

So you're basically calling him out for one year, perhaps two. In a decade plus wherein he won seven pennants.

That's a run stronger than any Red GM since the 1970s (and arguably just as strong as that run). It's a run as strong and long as any in the game aside from Atlanta's 90s run and the Yankees dominance from the 1920s until the early 60s.

[dougdirt]

Walt Jocketty has very little to do with the draft. He does control the farm system in the sense that he can trade guys away, but when Walt came in he left the system in tact and it really is for the most part, still in tact.

[Salukifan2]

The yankees always win and they draft fine. So do the Red sox. There are 40 rounds in the mlb draft and international signings. Draft position matters less in baseball than any other sport.

And I never said he did a poor job. i said he built a poor farm system between 2000 and when he was fired that left the organization completely hamstrung in 06, 07, and beyond.

I will say again, I am only talking about his drafting and player development between 2000 and 2007. I couldn't care less about his drafts from the 90's. My whole point is that he built his team (drafts from the 90's) and then did little to prepare when those players aged and left.

READ my posts less selectively scrap.

Also, cards have been in contention between 2009 and now and mozeliak and crew are doing just fine in the draft. Draft position doesn't mean a whole lot. The mariners have been drafting in the top ten every year since 2003 but they still suck. Tampa had top drafts for forever and it took them a decade to amount to anything. How about pittsburgh? draft position means nothing.

Finally, if you read my very first post it says, "Unless he changed his opinion on the draft." MY whole point was that i hope he doesn't end up neglecting the reds farm system as he did the cardinals.

[757690]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

The yankees always win and they draft fine. So do the Red sox. There are 40 rounds in the mlb draft and international signings. Draft position matters less in baseball than any other sport.

And I never said he did a poor job. i said he built a poor farm system between 2000 and when he was fired that left the organization completely hamstrung in 06, 07, and beyond.

I will say again, I am only talking about his drafting and player development between 2000 and 2007. I couldn't care less about his drafts from the 90's. My whole point is that he built his team (drafts from the 90's) and then did little to prepare when those players aged and left.

READ my posts less selectively scrap.

Also, cards have been in contention between 2009 and now and mozeliak and crew are doing just fine in the draft. Draft position doesn't mean a whole lot. The mariners have been drafting in the top ten every year since 2003 but they still suck. Tampa had top drafts for forever and it took them a decade to amount to anything. How about pittsburgh? draft position means nothing.

Finally, if you read my very first post it says, "Unless he changed his opinion on the draft." MY whole point was that i hope he doesn't end up neglecting the reds farm system as he did the cardinals.

Red Sox did fine in those drafts, but the Yankees did much worse than the Cardinals. Red Sox drafted around 10 slots higher a few times, and those were the times they got someone good.

Draft position means everything. Seriously, just look at the results of the first 15 players drafted vs the results of the second 15 players drafted in the first round every year. Don't have time to look up the exact numbers right now, but if you do, you'll be amazed at the difference.

The Cardinals didn't get great results in those years, but they got decent results for their position. Definitely could have been better, but it wasn't from neglect or lack of effort. Trust me, I suffered through the Marge-Linder decades of draft neglect, I know what it looks like, lol.

[Salukifan2]

thats a good point. neglect may be the wrong word. But i still say that just because you have lots of high drafts in baseball doesn't mean youre gonna be good, just like having low draft picks means you have to be mediocre to bad.

Also, only 23 memebers of the hall of fame as of 2011 were drafted. of those 23 7 came in the first round. 3 were undrafted. Not a single #1 draft pick has made the hall. That will however change with Griff and Chipper.

OF course youd rather draft higher but yankees, atlanta, boston to a degree, the even the cardinals show that a team can still be successful without lots of high draft picks.