MLB investigating region in PED war - ESPN

[Superdude]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

You can try and twist my words around but it won't work.

You’ve been on this horse for years now and it’s a little tiring. It seems like you’ve confidently aimed the finger at just about everyone at this point based on cute, empty phrases like “walks like a duck”. I remember that one from our Bautista arguments. I’m all for looking at evidence like this, but firing away at anything that moves, including entire cultures now, is just creating static and noise like WOY said.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Superdude

You’ve been on this horse for years now and it’s a little tiring. It seems like you’ve confidently aimed the finger at just about everyone at this point based on cute, empty phrases like “walks like a duck”. I remember that one from our Bautista arguments. I’m all for looking at evidence like this, but firing away at anything that moves, including entire cultures now, is just creating static and noise like WOY said.

That's fine, but the positive tests continue to pile up as some stand around and basically need a picture of a needle hanging out of someone's backside before they concede anything.

And I really don't point the finger at everyone. Just the highly questionable. We are in an era of seeing athletes in many different sports doing things never seen before. It's a little much. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there is a huge issue in sports today.

[savafan]

Originally Posted by 757690

I'm guessing A-Rod has played his last MLB game. If I'm the Yankees, I'm looking into nullifying his contract.

I think this puts him above Bonds as Clemens as the poster boy for PED's.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/0...-contract.html

The Yankees are exploring multiple avenues to void their contract with Alex Rodriguez, several baseball sources told ESPNNewYork.com's Wallace Matthews and Andrew Marchand.

[wolfboy]

Amphetamine use wasn't banned by MLB until 2006. Why aren't people challenged when they claim that the use of greenies was widespread in the 70s? It seems odd that we're quick to dismiss anecdotal evidence about steroids, but we never question it when it comes to greenies.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

Amphetamine use wasn't banned by MLB until 2006. Why aren't people challenged when they claim that the use of greenies was widespread in the 70s? It seems odd that we're quick to dismiss anecdotal evidence about steroids, but we never question it when it comes to greenies.

Tom House played in the 70s, juiced and said tons of guys did

I don't discount that, I also believe some guys have been juicing every season of my baseball watching life, that's forty plus years and too many players for me to spend my life pondering about. We live in a culture of prescriptions and have been for decades, to not expect that stuff to surface now and then is a dream that will never be filled

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

Amphetamine use wasn't banned by MLB until 2006. Why aren't people challenged when they claim that the use of greenies was widespread in the 70s? It seems odd that we're quick to dismiss anecdotal evidence about steroids, but we never question it when it comes to greenies.

Good point. Since greenies have been banned, there has been a dramatic drop in offense league wide. It maybe in conjunction with the banning of other PED's but I think people overlook greenies in this discussion.

http://themiddle54.com/2012/11/24/th...xing-that-one/

[MikeThierry]

I've also been consistent on the issue where I don't care if players are using HGH to recover from an injury. I need more information on this particular issue before I can get on my high horse about what's right or wrong. When MLB finishes it's investigation, I think we all can have a more clear picture of what's going on than what's been exposed thus far.

[klw]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

Good point. Since greenies have been banned, there has been a dramatic drop in offense league wide. It maybe in conjunction with the banning of other PED's but I think people overlook greenies in this discussion.

http://themiddle54.com/2012/11/24/th...xing-that-one/

I would think the loss of Greenies is overplayed now that we are in the age of Red Bull and other stimulant laden drinks and supplements.

[M2]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

You completely ducked the question.

You asked a rhetorical question. All I did was point out that the notion that the Latins are doping way more than anyone else is ludicrous.

[wolfboy]

Originally Posted by M2

You asked a rhetorical question. All I did was point out that the notion that the Latins are doping way more than anyone else is ludicrous.

I think there's a difference between suggesting that Latin American players have an inherent predisposition to doping (moronic), and Latin American players have better access to PEDs (plausible). Of course, we have no idea who is using, who is using more than others, etc...

edit: NPR article from a few years back discussing the availability of steroids in the Dominican: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=101171968

another good article discussing steroid use in the Dominican: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2763194

[M2]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

I think there's a difference between suggesting that Latin American players have an inherent predisposition to doping (moronic), and Latin American players have better access to PEDs (plausible). Of course, we have no idea who is using, who is using more than others, etc...

edit: NPR article from a few years back discussing the availability of steroids in the Dominican: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=101171968

another good article discussing steroid use in the Dominican: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2763194

Well, they keep on finding labs in the U.S. too. One question I have is whether those labs in exotic locales are making cutting edge cocktails that can beat detailed drug testing or just handing out juice that can get a kid noticed in the first place (which he then has to stop taking once he heads to the states).

If you're going to cheat and want to get away with it, then you've got to find the labs that are making scientific leaps, the ones that are steps ahead of the testing. Who those are and where those are, I couldn't begin to tell you.

[wolfboy]

Originally Posted by M2

Well, they keep on finding labs in the U.S. too. One question I have is whether those labs in exotic locales are making cutting edge cocktails that can beat detailed drug testing or just handing out juice that can get a kid noticed in the first place (which he then has to stop taking once he heads to the states).

If you're going to cheat and want to get away with it, then you've got to find the labs that are making scientific leaps, the ones that are steps ahead of the testing. Who those are and where those are, I couldn't begin to tell you.

That's a good point. Lance Armstrong didn't dodge tests for years by getting mail order juice from a Dominican pharmacy. The second article I linked to says that Dominican players accounted for half of all failed PED tests (at the time of the article). Is it because they have easy access to the raw materials, but little access to info. on how to beat tests? Seems plausible. Who knows?

[Cedric]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

That's a good point. Lance Armstrong didn't dodge tests for years by getting mail order juice from a Dominican pharmacy. The second article I linked to says that Dominican players accounted for half of all failed PED tests (at the time of the article). Is it because they have easy access to the raw materials, but little access to info. on how to beat tests? Seems plausible. Who knows?

I guess that's my point. I'm not pretending it's a negative cultural trait or anything like that. I'm just saying with the raw data we have now I would be much more thorough in my research if I was a talent evaluator. I'm not worried, nor do I care about punishment or any witch hunt. I am discussing this from a GM or ownership perspective.

[kaldaniels]

Forget the players' union for a second, cause they would never let this happen.

But who on here would be in favor of Olympic-type penalties? Let's say 1 year ban (and allowance for team to void contract) for the first offense. Lifetime ban for the second?

I am just typing this up off the top of my head without a ton of deliberation, but I'm thinking it would be nice to have such a system. It seems to me that many players think the reward outweighs the risk under the current rules.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

PEDs testing has already caught hundreds of players. I'd say it works pretty good. If you are taking PEDs you will get caught sooner or later, likely sooner.

MLB only started testing for HGH in 2012 and then only in Spring Training and then only random testing.

Now they are going to test for HGH year-round and everyone is likely to be tested at least once each year. The guys that have been taking it up til now had better give it up.

I am all for drug testing and cleaning up the sport, but I don't think PEDs have had nearly the effect that most people think they did. The data clearly show that the effects of PEDs have been dramatically overblown. Let's get rid of the cheating and the cheaters, but this is not a major crisis that ruins the game.

What's the "NEXT" HGH? That's the question MLB should be asking. IDK if they're capable of doing it, but they need to get in front of the science here instead of constantly lagging behind the cutting edge science of the day.