Reds have 3 ranked in Top 100

[Salukifan2]

For the final time. Walt jocketty is great gm. With the cards in the 90s he built a power house of team. He built it by drafting well in the 90s and then making savvy trades and other acquisitions to build a fantastic nucleus of talent. But, when it became clear that this team was going almost completely disintegrate except for yadi, pujols, carp, and waino he was left scratching his head because he had nothing on the farm that he could draw from. He had nothing on the farm because his group had bad draft after bad draft from 2000 to 2007.

My whole point is that for the sake of the reds i hope he has learned from his experiences in stl and wont make the same mistake twice. Because i am a see to believe kind of guy, i will wait till 2015 before i make an assessment as of whether or not he has changed. But, since in the last year he has traded 3 top 100 prospects i he isnt off to a great start imo.

[lollipopcurve]

since in the last year he has traded 3 top 100 prospects i he isnt off to a great start imo.

Look more closely. None of them is a pitcher. Catcher, behind another top prospect. 1B, behind league MVP under long-term deal. SS, behind established major league SS with 5 years of control left.

While WJ's MO may be similar, it's not the same.

[Salukifan2]

Thats true, though i do believe time will indicate that they traded the wrong catching prospect. And i wont go so far as to say Cozart is an "established major league short stop." He is worse than a no hit middle infielder, he is a no get on base middle infielder. He is slick with the glove but so is Gregorious, and Didi is alot better with the bat.
And Alonso is capable of playing the outfield, which will have a hole when ludwick is gone. I'm not saying don't trade prospects, but there is a reason why teams are doing it less and less.

[mdccclxix]

Alonso's outfield defense and Didi's bat have not been proven, far from it.

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

My whole point is that for the sake of the reds i hope he has learned from his experiences in stl and wont make the same mistake twice. Because i am a see to believe kind of guy, i will wait till 2015 before i make an assessment as of whether or not he has changed. But, since in the last year he has traded 3 top 100 prospects i he isnt off to a great start imo.

I see no reason to ding him for the "mistake" of winning a World Series. He's drafted very well, as evidenced by the WAR of his players now playing across mlb. I also believe you're being incredibly harsh in assessing Jocketty's tenure as the Cardinal GM.

No GM hits on every draft. All GMs make mistakes. Jocketty typically makes less mistakes than just about any other GM in baseball.

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Thats true, though i do believe time will indicate that they traded the wrong catching prospect. And i wont go so far as to say Cozart is an "established major league short stop." He is worse than a no hit middle infielder, he is a no get on base middle infielder. He is slick with the glove but so is Gregorious, and Didi is alot better with the bat.
And Alonso is capable of playing the outfield, which will have a hole when ludwick is gone. I'm not saying don't trade prospects, but there is a reason why teams are doing it less and less.

1. There are serious questions about Gregorius' bat.
2. Yonder Alonso was quite possibly the worst defensive OF of the past 40 years.

[Salukifan2]

dude. i have said for 2 pages that he drafted poorly from 2000-2007. I HAVE NEVER SAID HE IS A BAD GM. or that he is bad at drafting. His draft results from 2000-2007 speak for themselves. There are serious questions about cozart's bat. .288 obp isnt exactly gettin it done. For reference, Daniel Descalso had an OBP of .303. So yeah, thats pretty bad. Didi is 22. Cozart is 27.

Ill agree that trading Alonso will end up being a good call but Grandal will end up being much more productive than mez imo.

Back to Jocketty, i don't expect every GM to hit on every draft. But over 8 years i think everyone can expect their front office to do better than Jocketty's from 2000-2007 on draft day.

If you bring up Jocketty's draft resume from the 90's, or with the reds, again you will have proven to me that you are not reading my posts, and are picking what you want to read.

[Scrap Irony]

What you seem to be missing, over and over again, is that Jocketty's drafting directly contributed to two World Series teams in those years (and later, after he was canned) you say he was a poor drafter. Not only did they win the whole thing twice, they were also in the playoffs how many times during that era?

In an argument like this, I think it's entirely appropriate to point and say, "Scoreboard."

Because what he did worked really, really well for the Cardinals.

[Salukifan2]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

I see no reason to ding him for the "mistake" of winning a World Series. He's drafted very well, as evidenced by the WAR of his players now playing across mlb. I also believe you're being incredibly harsh in assessing Jocketty's tenure as the Cardinal GM.

No GM hits on every draft. All GMs make mistakes. Jocketty typically makes less mistakes than just about any other GM in baseball.

Let me get this straight, the cardinals 90 and 88 win teams that won the WS and made the NLCS this past year were teams built on luck, but the 83 win team with the lineup of:

C: Molina: Back when he still couldn't hit
1B: Pujols
2B: Ronnie Belliard
SS: David Eckstein
3B: An inneffective scott rolen
LF: Chris Duncan
CF: An over the hill Jim Edmonds
RF: Scott Spezio/So Taguchi/ Preston Wilson

was a great collection of talent because Jocketty was at the Helm? That team was the WORST TO EVER win a WS.

And again, i'm critically assessing his ability to draft/develop young talent in the STL organization from 2000- 2007.

[Salukifan2]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

What you seem to be missing, over and over again, is that Jocketty's drafting directly contributed to two World Series teams in those years (and later, after he was canned) you say he was a poor drafter. Not only did they win the whole thing twice, they were also in the playoffs how many times during that era?

In an argument like this, I think it's entirely appropriate to point and say, "Scoreboard."

Because what he did worked really, really well for the Cardinals.

Yes, scoreboard. The cardinals from '04 to '07 did this. 105 W, 100 W, 83 W, 78 W. Why did a team that won 100 games win only 78 two years later? Because the organization failed to bring in young talent with which to build a new. Guess how many starting position players on the '11 world series team had anything to do with Jocketty? 3.

The lack of a productive farm system is what got Jocketty fired man. Everyone knows it.

You are once again assessing everything he has done in the last 20 years or so of being a GM. I am analyzing his inability to create a productive farm system from 2000-2007.

Furhermore, I have never disputed with you that jocketty had good drafts the created a team that was fantastic. Read my posts!

[Red Swagger]

I have 3 complaints about Jocketty's trades:

Grandal should have been kept, I am shocked that the Reds scouting department and talent evaluators couldn't see that Grandal's bat was more polished and ML ready, has a better approach and doesn't seem to phased by the big leagues. Thought the Reds would value a switch hitting C who can hit for power and especially average. But I still think Mesoraco will click and reach his potential has a middle of the order run producer. Maybe the Reds knew something we didn't, about PED's and wanted him out of the organization.

Jeremy Horst for Wilson Valdez was an absolutely horrid trade. Another case of the Reds under valuing a LH reliever. I don't know if the FO thought Horst wasn't capable of being an effective RP at the ML level or they just wanted to give him a chance elsewhere, but he had a great 2012 in Philly, and we all know what Valdez looked like. I know our BP was stacked last year, but could have used a solid LH RP, def a loogy to take Bray's role. The 2013 Reds BP could absolutely use Horst, guess the Reds love trading LH RP. This trade really didn't have big repercussions or anything.

And the third move I didn't like, the trade of Didi Gregorius. He is 22 years old, a defensive whiz, more capable with the bat than some think. I LOVE Cozart, I just wish we would have found someway to keep Didi at AAA in 2013 and give him one more year to evaluate his talent, as well as Cozart's 2nd year in the bigs. Plus he would offer us depth and a HUGE insurance policy. Not to mention, his trade stock would be boosted dramatically with another good year in 2013. I understand the trade though, being able to get Choo will help this offense big time. I just wish Walt would have called Kevin Towers and offered Didi for Bauer. He wanted Didi BADLY. Maybe we could have gotten Trevor Bauer straight up for Gregorius, then kept Bauer for ourselves. Then offer Leake and Stubbs to the Indians and get a bigger package in return.

Jocketty is one of the games best GM's and I am glad he has helped turn this franchise into a contender year in and year out. We have built a winner here with a BIG window.

[Steve4192]

Originally Posted by Red Swagger

Grandal should have been kept

I prefer Grandal as well, but I don't think keeping him was an option. I think the Padres preferred him as well. I suspect Mat Latos would still be a Padre if the Reds insisted on keeping Grandal.

[Pony Boy]

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

I see no reason to ding him for the "mistake" of winning a World Series. He's drafted very well, as evidenced by the WAR of his players now playing across mlb. I also believe you're being incredibly harsh in assessing Jocketty's tenure as the Cardinal GM.

No GM hits on every draft. All GMs make mistakes. Jocketty typically makes less mistakes than just about any other GM in baseball.

Good point. No one in baseball thinks that Jocketty made many "mistakes" as a Cardinals GM. In his 12 years as GM of the Cards he won 7 Division titles, 2 Pennants and 1 WS. He leveraged his farm system very well to acquire talent. Although he may not have drafted great, that is largely the fault of the guys making the picks (not Jocketty). And Jocketty had the good sense to hold on to guys like Pujols who he didnt draft, but also didnt trade early in his career before it was clear that he was a once-in-a-generation talent. And he did all of this with a reasonable payroll.

[Salukifan2]

Jockettys crew drafted pujols. 13th round of '99

[Scrap Irony]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Why did a team that won 100 games win only 78 two years later?

Injuries.

Middle reliever Josh Hancock died.
Ace pitcher Chris Carpenter was on the DL all year (relatively) and had TJ surgery.
Yadier Molina was put on the DL in May with a broken hand.
Jim Edmonds, Tyler Johnson, and David Eckstein went on the DL in June. So did Braden Looper.
Scott Rolen and Scott Speizio ended their seasons in August.

That season, Brandon Ryan, Adam Wainwright, and Chris Duncan were all youngsters pressed into larger roles that thrived. Ryan was a rookie; Wainwright became a starter, and Duncan was a second-year guy.

The Cardinals also lost four starting pitches to free agency from the year before.

No team could withstand that amount of injuries.