Chris Carpenter likely out for 2013.

[Wonderful Monds]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...r-in-the-game/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5...seball/page/21

Phillips and cueto made the BR article. no cards did thugh

Since we're speaking in "objective" terms, Bleacher Report is objectively recognized as one of the worst sports websites on the Internet.

[Wonderful Monds]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Yes, people who say ridiculous things always have people that want to listen. Thats why Howard Stern, Don Imus, Bill MAher, Bill O'reilly, etc.... are all millionaires. T-Plush had alot of followers too.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mul...content.4.html

That list is of "most Eccentric" which is a nice way of saying annoying.

He's the one who insulted a team and a fan base on a radio show, then showed up the other teams catcher at the beginning of a game starting a brawl. Yes, both teams were too blame but if Phillips would have first, not said anything inflamatory or second not came up to molina like they were old chums jus to get a rise out of him then the fight wouldn't have happened.

He is also the one who accused Neil walker of being a racist when Neil Walker's family practically prays to Roberto Clemente every night. Neil Walker is about the furthest thing from a racist.

Also, major networks aren't going to publish lists of the most annoying players. They will leave that to bloggers which is why it works fine for this. For analysis yeah its not that great, but for an article about annoying players? its just fine

Phillips said nothing about Neil Walker. That was Jared Hughes. Basically everything you have said in this thread has been empirically incorrect.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Brutus

What exactly do you base that on? Leake is only 7 months older. Here are their MLB rates thus far:

Leake

6.03 K/9, 2.38 BB/9, 1.64 GB/FB, 4.02 SIERA/3.87 xFIP

Kelly

6.31 K/9, 3.03 BB/9, 1.88 GB/FB, 4.12 SIERA/4.03 xFIP


They're basically the same pitcher.

Well they aren't the same pitcher. I think he's right to say that Kelly is more talented than Leake. Leake is a guy that relies on finesse. Joe Kelly is younger and can blow away people. I think his upside is greater. Joe Kelly's fastball, for example, averaged 94.2 MPH last season. It was on average one of the strongest fastballs for starters last season.

Right now they might be the same pitcher but I think going forward in the next couple of years Kelly will be better because his stuff is very good. That's why I think someone can say Kelly is more talented.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Kelly only started 12 games in AAA last year before being called up. He was very raw last year and I expect him to be better this year with MLB experience under his belt.

[wheels]

I'm loving this thread.

Let's go ahead and start the season right. I want ten in a row with the Cards right now.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

Well they aren't the same pitcher. I think he's right to say that Kelly is more talented than Leake. Leake is a guy that relies on finesse. Joe Kelly is younger and can blow away people. I think his upside is greater. Joe Kelly's fastball, for example, averaged 94.2 MPH last season. It was on average one of the strongest fastballs for starters last season.

Right now they might be the same pitcher but I think going forward in the next couple of years Kelly will be better because his stuff is very good. That's why I think someone can say Kelly is more talented.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Kelly only started 12 games in AAA last year before being called up. He was very raw last year and I expect him to be better this year with MLB experience under his belt.

I don't know where Kelly has shown this ability to "blow people away" looking at his career numbers. Throwing a little harder doesn't make him a power pitcher. He still relies on location and a heavy ball to induce grounders. He pitches more like a finesses pitcher than a power guy.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Brutus

I don't know where Kelly has shown this ability to "blow people away" looking at his career numbers. Throwing a little harder doesn't make him a power pitcher. He still relies on location and a heavy ball to induce grounders. He pitches more like a finesses pitcher than a power guy.

His career numbers based on 16 games started? In the minors he was a strikeout pitcher and he will more than likely translate to that in the majors. By saying "throwing a little harder" I don't think you're doing his fastball much justice. Averaging 94.2 MPH on his fastball isn't just throwing it a little harder. A good chunk of pitchers never even reach that. To put that in perspective, Justin Verlander averaged 94.9 MPH on his fastball last year. By no means am I saying Joe Kelly is equal to Verlander. Not by a long shot. All I'm trying to say is that averaging 94+ in the course of a given year is nothing to look down on. To put that in perspective, no Reds starter averaged 94+ on their fastball.

[Salukifan2]

Mike got to that before i could. Kelly has the tools to become a #2 pitcher. Leake does not.
I said Kelly has more talent than Leake, not that he has put up better numbers after a little over a dozen MLB starts.

I was wrong about the neil walker thing, i thought i remembered it was betweem him and the second baseman.

Other than that, nothing ive said has been "empirically incorrect." Many people do find Brandon Phillips to be annoying. Maybe if Chris Carpenter ever actually played folks would remember he is annoying too, idk. And the Reds vs. Cards is not a huge rivalry in St. Louis unless both are competing for the division. They were in opposite divisions for a long time so they didn't play each other that much. Milwaukee vs St louis was a huge rivalry 2 years ago. now, not so much. The same thing will happen with reds and cardinals. They compete for a while, then one will fall back, or maybe both will and the rivalry will die. Its not a a bitter historic rivalry like it's being treated by some.

[757690]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Mike got to that before i could. Kelly has the tools to become a #2 pitcher. Leake does not.
I said Kelly has more talent than Leake, not that he has put up better numbers after a little over a dozen MLB starts.

Mike Leake has better stuff than Kelly. He doesn't throw harder, but he has more movement, more pitches he can use effectively and better control. His biggest problem has been the gopher ball. Watch the two pitch, and it's clear who has a higher ceiling, it's Leake and it's not even close.

Card fans talk about how Kelly only had 12 starts in AAA before his promotion to the big leagues. Leake went straight from college to the bigs in 2010. He basically has been learning on the job for the past three years. The simple fact that he has three full season of being an MLB starter puts him ahead of Kelly. He is now at the age and experience level where most pitchers turns the corner.

I really like Kelly, love his fastball, but he's mile away from putting it together. In fact, he has not even been mentioned in the discussion to fill Carp's spot. There's a reason why.

[Tommyjohn25]

Originally Posted by wheels

I'm loving this thread.

Let's go ahead and start the season right. I want ten in a row with the Cards right now.

I agree. I'm ready to rock war paint, brother.

I would also like to thank everyone for keeping this thread (mostly) civil. I try not to post in Cards/Reds threads, because it is literally impossible for me to be objective on the subject. My hate for that organization knows no boundaries.

[Salukifan2]

Originally Posted by 757690

Mike Leake has better stuff than Kelly. He doesn't throw harder, but he has more movement, more pitches he can use effectively and better control. His biggest problem has been the gopher ball. Watch the two pitch, and it's clear who has a higher ceiling, it's Leake and it's not even close.

Card fans talk about how Kelly only had 12 starts in AAA before his promotion to the big leagues. Leake went straight from college to the bigs in 2010. He basically has been learning on the job for the past three years. The simple fact that he has three full season of being an MLB starter puts him ahead of Kelly. He is now at the age and experience level where most pitchers turns the corner.

I really like Kelly, love his fastball, but he's mile away from putting it together. In fact, he has not even been mentioned in the discussion to fill Carp's spot. There's a reason why.

Thats because Kelly was a reliever in College. And he was in the mix to get a starting job out of spring training before Carpenter got injured. It was known that Lynn, Miller, Kelly, and Rosenthal were going to battle it out for the last spot. Now that another spot has opened im sure they will give Lynn one. That means its Kelly, Miller, and Rosenthal fighting for the final spot. But im sure Garcia won't be able to make it more than 10 innings in spring training before his shoulder flares up.

If mike Leake's upside is so high then why is he either going to start the next season as a middle reliever or in triple-A? The same position Kelly will find himself in. Kelly has been rapidly promoted over the last year and Leake is about to be rapidly demoted.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Thats because Kelly was a reliever in College. And he was in the mix to get a starting job out of spring training before Carpenter got injured. It was known that Lynn, Miller, Kelly, and Rosenthal were going to battle it out for the last spot. Now that another spot has opened im sure they will give Lynn one. That means its Kelly, Miller, and Rosenthal fighting for the final spot. But im sure Garcia won't be able to make it more than 10 innings in spring training before his shoulder flares up.

If mike Leake's upside is so high then why is he either going to start the next season as a middle reliever or in triple-A? The same position Kelly will find himself in. Kelly has been rapidly promoted over the last year and Leake is about to be rapidly demoted.

Because the Reds have an excellent rotation. It's not a knock against Leake.

[Salukifan2]

If Mike Leake didn't go 8-9 with 4.58 era last season he would not be getting removed from the starting rotation to be replaced by a guy who has 0 mlb starts. Mike LEake does not have a high ceiling. He will at best be a #4 starter in his career. Joe Kelly may very well only be a #4 starter. But his tools give him the ability to be better. And for a guy who can only throw a no movement fastball he seemed to do pretty well in his 16 starts with I believe over a dozen of them being quality starts.

[757690]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

If Mike Leake didn't go 8-9 with 4.58 era last season he would not be getting removed from the starting rotation to be replaced by a guy who has 0 mlb starts. Mike LEake does not have a high ceiling. He will at best be a #4 starter in his career. Joe Kelly may very well only be a #4 starter. But his tools give him the ability to be better. And for a guy who can only throw a no movement fastball he seemed to do pretty well in his 16 starts with I believe over a dozen of them being quality starts.

Leake already went 12-9 with a 3.86 ERA in 26 starts. That's easily #3 starter production, and a #2 starter on many teams. He did that in the majors when Kelly was in single A.

[mbgrayson]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

If Mike Leake didn't go 8-9 with 4.58 era last season he would not be getting removed from the starting rotation to be replaced by a guy who has 0 mlb starts. Mike LEake does not have a high ceiling. He will at best be a #4 starter in his career. Joe Kelly may very well only be a #4 starter. But his tools give him the ability to be better. And for a guy who can only throw a no movement fastball he seemed to do pretty well in his 16 starts with I believe over a dozen of them being quality starts.

Looking at last years game logs, Kelly had 10 quality starts out of 16 games started. He never pitched 7 innings in a MLB game. A few of his starts were good, but he didn't make 6 innings. Certainly a 3.53 ERA is nothing to feel bad about...

[Salukifan2]

yeah he had a 3.86 era sandwiched between 4.23 in 2010 and 4.58 in 2012. Jake Westbrook once had a 3.38 era. That doesn't make him a #2 starter.

Look you can make this argument all you want but Mike Leake was awful this year and if everything goes well for chapman, he will never be anything more than a spot starter for the reds ever again.

And, if that production makes him easily a #3 and possibly a #2 then Bailey is a bonafide #2 and possibly a #1? Give me a break.