Chris Carpenter likely out for 2013.

[Salukifan2]

thats true

[757690]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

That's like saying garbage water is better than garbage full of dirty diapers. Both are pretty much the same pitcher right now in their respective careers. I really do not have a high value on any of them. I've never been impressed with Arroyo. He throws junk upon junk while Westbrook throws slop upon slop. I don't think both of them should be counted on as being marque pitchers in a rotation.

Over the past seven seasons, Arroyo has averaged 13 wins, 212 IP and an ERA+ of 106. Over the same seven seasons, Westbrook has averaged 8 wins, 130 IP and an ERA+ of 96. I agree neither are marque pitchers, but one has been significantly more productive.

[mdccclxix]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

So did westbrook

Sorry, I meant of his career in comparison with this Kelly guy who's supposed to be awesome(r).

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by 757690

Over the past seven seasons, Arroyo has averaged 13 wins, 212 IP and an ERA+ of 106. Over the same seven seasons, Westbrook has averaged 8 wins, 130 IP and an ERA+ of 96. I agree neither are marque pitchers, but one has been significantly more productive.

That's a fair assessment. I guess what I'm trying to say is right now in their careers, they're about even. I don't look at either as pitchers one can count on to give them a better performance than the pitcher they're facing on a daily basis. If it were up to me, I wouldn't have kept Westbrook and I would give one of the young guys a chance in the rotation. There will probably be more value for the Cardinals if they did that.

[vaticanplum]

I think Cards (and Reds) fans may read this as a rivalry but I actually think there's been growing resentment toward the Cardinals all over baseball the last few years. As others have hinted, I think the foundation of it isn't so much the team or the fans as it is the media. Was it exciting to see a scrappy fellow like David Eckstein play well in the 2006 WS and make every athletically subpar guy in America feel like a hero? For about five minutes it was. Did the media shove it down people's throats so much that they ultimately had no choice but to realize that David Eckstein wasn't actually that good at baseball or all that valuable to the team? Yes. Do the Cardinals have great fans? Yes. Do fans of 29 other teams start to resent being reminded of that every time the Cards play on TV? Yes. I mean, that's a borderline personal affront to fans, or people are going to look at it that way.

They've developed a real habit of limping through the season and coming alive when it counts, knocking out teams (i.e., the Rangers) who have dominated all year long and who are by that point perceived as being more "deserving". That's the kind of thing that just overfloweths your life with joy if you're a fan of that team and reaaaaally starts to grate on you if you're a fan of 29 other teams. That's the sour grapes basis. I dream of the Reds playing in a WS like 2011. Every baseball fan does. I wanted the Cardinals to lose very badly, but I wouldn't trade a Rangers win for a more boring series.

But then on top of it, fairly or not, I think a lot of fans all over baseball have really started to perceive them as an incredibly unlikeable team. They have so many riches but don't seem to have much humility about it. LaRussa was hated by a lot of people for a long time. They do whine an awful lot. It always feels like SportsCenter is checking in on Cards' press conferences post-games more than just about any other team, because they're always hinting at their opponents' failings, baseball and/or moral. That's annoying if you're an unsuccessful team, borderline intolerable if you're a good one. There are guys on that team I respect as players -- Molina, Wainwright -- but I honestly can't name a single Cardinal about whom I think, yeah, if my kid grew up to be a baseball player, I'd want him to be a guy like that. Just stand-up guys who do their best and accept the result. I don't think that as a Reds fan; I think that as a baseball fan. A lot of people across baseball feel that way right now. The team will turn over and go through a dry spell at some point and it will all subside and everyone will boringly hate the Yankees again.

[M2]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

I really think Arroyo is about equal with Westbrook. Both are unreliable except for the fact that they give both of their team innings.

Difference being Arroyo pitches a lot more innings. He's also flat out better. Lower WHIP, higher K rate, better ERA+. Put it this way, Arroyo is a better-than-Suppan innings eater. I'd say Bronson's arguably the best innings eater of the past decade (1,872 IP over the past nine seasons with a 107 ERA+). Westbrook is a less-than-Suppan innings eater.

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

II have a feeling that Rosenthal will get the nod over Kelly and in that scenario, I think he's far superior than Leake is.

Love Rosenthal's arm. Not sure if he's going to be able to waltz into a rotation job without going through an adjustment period. It might take 300 IP or so for him to turn all that potential into performance. It's the tradeoff of having young pitching, you've got to put up with their growing pains. Leake may not light up a radar gun, but he can pitch and he's coming out the other side of his MLB apprenticeship.

[M2]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Mets fans hate the Yankees and Phillies and Braves

And themselves.

[MikeThierry]

I think you can look at Matt Holliday as a model guy to say "yeah, I want my son growing up that way". He's a great teammate, great in the community, spends a ton of time for charity (it's why he was nominated for the Roberto Clemente Award this year) and he's a stand up guy. He also came out recently and said that all PED users need a harsher punishment.

EDIT: It seems like a lot of the hate towards the Cardinals comes from the TLR era. That era is finished and it's a different team now. I don't know if it's fair to hold a team accountable for players and managers that are no longer on the team anymore.

[M2]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

I think you can look at Matt Holliday as a model guy to say "yeah, I want my son growing up that way". He's a great teammate, great in the community, spends a ton of time for charity (it's why he was nominated for the Roberto Clemente Award this year) and he's a stand up guy. He also came out recently and said that all PED users need a harsher punishment.

I'll add that everybody should play baseball like Carlos Beltran.

[vaticanplum]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

I think you can look at Matt Holliday as a model guy to say "yeah, I want my son growing up that way". He's a great teammate, great in the community, spends a ton of time for charity (it's why he was nominated for the Roberto Clemente Award this year) and he's a stand up guy. He also came out recently and said that all PED users need a harsher punishment.

Matt Holliday has always struck me as part of the Mark Texeira Good Lord, I Don't Know What It Is, But That Guy Seems Dumb As A Post club.

Also, Marco Scutaro.

[vaticanplum]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

EDIT: It seems like a lot of the hate towards the Cardinals comes from the TLR era. That era is finished and it's a different team now. I don't know if it's fair to hold a team accountable for players and managers that are no longer on the team anymore.

That's the thing, though: no one but a Cardinals fan would think of this Cardinals team as a non-TLR team. It's still heavily his players and bears his markings. That will go away, but it takes time. I'm not saying it's fair, it's just how fans' memories work, particularly with teams they don't follow that closely. People are going to associate Bobby Cox with the Braves for a while and that team is way younger than the Cardinals.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by M2

And themselves.

^^^ FTW ^^^

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by M2

Difference being Arroyo pitches a lot more innings. He's also flat out better. Lower WHIP, higher K rate, better ERA+. Put it this way, Arroyo is a better-than-Suppan innings eater. I'd say Bronson's arguably the best innings eater of the past decade (1,872 IP over the past nine seasons with a 107 ERA+). Westbrook is a less-than-Suppan innings eater.



Love Rosenthal's arm. Not sure if he's going to be able to waltz into a rotation job without going through an adjustment period. It might take 300 IP or so for him to turn all that potential into performance. It's the tradeoff of having young pitching, you've got to put up with their growing pains. Leake may not light up a radar gun, but he can pitch and he's coming out the other side of his MLB apprenticeship.

Yes you're technically right but again, it's my trash water vs. diaper bag argument. Arroyo has a career ERA+ of 104 while Westbrook has a career ERA+ of 98. Their SO/9 is 5.9 for Arroyo vs. 5.1 for Westbrook. One has a career WHIP of 1.305 and one has a career WHIP of 1.394. One has a H/9 of 9.2 while the other has a 9.7 H/9. They're essentially the same pitcher, esp. right now in their career. I will concede the innings issue which Arroyo is clearly an innings eater over Westbrook. However, that's about it as far as Arroyo being vastly better than Westbrook. At best, both are a push right now given that Westbrook is 35 and Arroyo is 36. You can interchange the pitchers with one another and not get a vast drop off in performance.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

Matt Holliday has always struck me as part of the Mark Texeira Good Lord, I Don't Know What It Is, But That Guy Seems Dumb As A Post club.

Also, Marco Scutaro.

I don't think that's very fair. He's just not a vocal guy. He goes about his business

In fact, this recent statement from Holliday is one of the more vocal stances he's taken on something. I applaud him for standing up here. Not a lot of big named players are taking this stance:

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/ey...-for-ped-users

[vaticanplum]

I'm actually not crazy about players taking stances like that while they're still active, but that's 100% personal taste.