Chris Carpenter likely out for 2013.

[M2]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

Yes you're technically right but again, it's my trash water vs. diaper bag argument. Arroyo has a career ERA+ of 104 while Westbrook has a career ERA+ of 98.

There's nothing trash water or diaper bag about either of them. Both are quality major league pitchers who've lasted as long as they have because they're good. 208 IP with a 107 ERA+, which is what Bronson Arroyo has been for the past nine years, is one hell of a good pitcher. Westbrook's a step down from that, but still a good guy to have on your side. I couldn't disagree more with looking down your nose at either of these two. They keep getting the job done while flash-in-the-pans scurry off to the baseball graveyard. It's not all about the radar gun readings.

[Salukifan2]

Originally Posted by M2

There's nothing trash water or diaper bag about either of them. Both are quality major league pitchers who've lasted as long as they have because they're good. 208 IP with a 107 ERA+, which is what Bronson Arroyo has been for the past nine years, is one hell of a good pitcher. Westbrook's a step down from that, but still a good guy to have on your side. I couldn't disagree more with looking down your nose at either of these two. They keep getting the job done while flash-in-the-pans scurry off to the baseball graveyard. It's not all about the radar gun readings.

Our opinion is such because we are paying 8.5 mil a year for that production. If westbeook only cost 4 mil we wouldnt complain

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Our opinion is such because we are paying 8.5 mil a year for that production. If westbeook only cost 4 mil we wouldnt complain

I agree partly with this but I really never worry about the Cardinals finances.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by M2

There's nothing trash water or diaper bag about either of them. Both are quality major league pitchers who've lasted as long as they have because they're good. 208 IP with a 107 ERA+, which is what Bronson Arroyo has been for the past nine years, is one hell of a good pitcher. Westbrook's a step down from that, but still a good guy to have on your side. I couldn't disagree more with looking down your nose at either of these two. They keep getting the job done while flash-in-the-pans scurry off to the baseball graveyard. It's not all about the radar gun readings.

Go on...

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Our opinion is such because we are paying 8.5 mil a year for that production. If westbeook only cost 4 mil we wouldnt complain

Y'all's opinion that Westbrook and Arroyo are basically the same has to do with you being Cardinal fans and ignoring their actual production. The Reds have one of the best rotations in the majors without Chapman and the Cardinals are a step down from that; but, the Cardinals have the potential to get there in the next few years should their young pitchers pan out. This year? No.

Bum

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

I agree partly with this but I really never worry about the Cardinals finances.

I never worry about any teams finances, that's the biggest waste of energy in fandom

[Salukifan2]

Originally Posted by vaticanplum

I think Cards (and Reds) fans may read this as a rivalry but I actually think there's been growing resentment toward the Cardinals all over baseball the last few years. As others have hinted, I think the foundation of it isn't so much the team or the fans as it is the media. Was it exciting to see a scrappy fellow like David Eckstein play well in the 2006 WS and make every athletically subpar guy in America feel like a hero? For about five minutes it was. Did the media shove it down people's throats so much that they ultimately had no choice but to realize that David Eckstein wasn't actually that good at baseball or all that valuable to the team? Yes. Do the Cardinals have great fans? Yes. Do fans of 29 other teams start to resent being reminded of that every time the Cards play on TV? Yes. I mean, that's a borderline personal affront to fans, or people are going to look at it that way.

They've developed a real habit of limping through the season and coming alive when it counts, knocking out teams (i.e., the Rangers) who have dominated all year long and who are by that point perceived as being more "deserving". That's the kind of thing that just overfloweths your life with joy if you're a fan of that team and reaaaaally starts to grate on you if you're a fan of 29 other teams. That's the sour grapes basis. I dream of the Reds playing in a WS like 2011. Every baseball fan does. I wanted the Cardinals to lose very badly, but I wouldn't trade a Rangers win for a more boring series.

But then on top of it, fairly or not, I think a lot of fans all over baseball have really started to perceive them as an incredibly unlikeable team. They have so many riches but don't seem to have much humility about it. LaRussa was hated by a lot of people for a long time. They do whine an awful lot. It always feels like SportsCenter is checking in on Cards' press conferences post-games more than just about any other team, because they're always hinting at their opponents' failings, baseball and/or moral. That's annoying if you're an unsuccessful team, borderline intolerable if you're a good one. There are guys on that team I respect as players -- Molina, Wainwright -- but I honestly can't name a single Cardinal about whom I think, yeah, if my kid grew up to be a baseball player, I'd want him to be a guy like that. Just stand-up guys who do their best and accept the result. I don't think that as a Reds fan; I think that as a baseball fan. A lot of people across baseball feel that way right now. The team will turn over and go through a dry spell at some point and it will all subside and everyone will boringly hate the Yankees again.

This. Totally agree. After '06 it was the xardinals turn to sit in the cellar for a fewsummers and it didnt happen. They just became annoying and pesky.

[MikeThierry]

Though one might complain about Westbrook's salary, I didn't realize that Arroyo will be making 11.5 million this year. That kind of shocks me.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by westofyou

I never worry about any teams finances, that's the biggest waste of energy in fandom

I wish I could double like this. I do not understand why fans go ape over their team spending X money on a guy. I'm pretty sure clubs have a better idea what their finances are better than most people do.

[Tommyjohn25]

Speaking of "role-model" type players, I would have to lump Wainwright in that class. As much as it pains me to say it because of the jersey he wears, he seems to be a pretty stand-up guy, and a heck of a pitcher when healthy.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Salukifan2

Our opinion is such because we are paying 8.5 mil a year for that production. If westbeook only cost 4 mil we wouldnt complain

No, my opinion is such because Arroyo's been a quality, dependable major league pitcher for a decade. It's a rarity and any Reds fan who turns their nose up at it is either a newbie ignorant of team history or suffering from selective amnesia.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Tommyjohn25

Speaking of "role-model" type players, I would have to lump Wainwright in that class. As much as it pains me to say it because of the jersey he wears, he seems to be a pretty stand-up guy, and a heck of a pitcher when healthy.

That Jon Jay is a shady character I hear

[Tommyjohn25]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

That Jon Jay is a shady character I hear

His stance is weird...I don't trust him.

[Salukifan2]

Originally Posted by M2

No, my opinion is such because Arroyo's been a quality, dependable major league pitcher for a decade. It's a rarity and any Reds fan who turns their nose up at it is either a newbie ignorant of team history or suffering from selective amnesia.

"Our"- cards fans

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Tommyjohn25

His stance is weird...I don't trust him.

gahh and don't get me started at those defensive plays he makes. He's hot dogging it to make it look like he's a better centerfielder than he is. Horrible... just HORRIBLE!