Ryan Braun going down?

[BenHayes]

The thing seemingly lost in all this is that almost all of the players named either played with each other at Miami or played for Miami at some point. Maybe someone should look more into that link and see where that goes.

[M2]

Originally Posted by alwaysawarrior

Again you are acting like testing was hard to beat, it wasn't.

No, I'm pointing out that Braun must have a pretty remarkable young fellow to figure out how to beat it before he was even in it. If so, way to go Ryan Braun.

And if it's simple to beat the testing program, like anyone can do it no problem, then why bother with it? And how does a seasoned pro like Braun, who's beaten the test so many times before, get caught?

You're opening up a can of worms and then ignoring all the worms.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

The current testing, yes, they agreed to. They have fought the more stringent testing. I'm not sure how hard MLB has pressed the issue of more stringent testing. They "puff" about how much they are doing, but this form of testing won't end HGH/Steroid use or even make it minimal.

Bum

That's why they call it "bargaining" and that's why they have Hippa rules too.

But from what I gather you'd prefer that the game have a stormtrooper approach to testing, IE the doorbell rings, the door opens, player gets grabbed, tested, and then the test team goes to the next subjects home.

Sports in Amerika

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by westofyou

That's why they call it "bargaining" and that's why they have Hippa rules too.

But from what I gather you'd prefer that the game have a stormtrooper approach to testing, IE the doorbell rings, the door opens, player gets grabbed, tested, and then the test team goes to the next subjects home.

Sports in Amerika

I'm sure it comes across that way. I understand union bargaining. I know both parties agreed to the current testing. To be fair, I think the testing has even cleaned the game up a bit. Is that good enough? That's a matter of individual perception. Obviously, there are reasonable measures that one has to take to testing that doesn't take away from the Players freedoms as Amerikans, but, personally, I don't think they've come close to that line.

Honestly, I wish baseball would just stop talking about what a great job they are doing cleaning up the game, when most of us die-hard fans (hardly the average fan) know that is not the case.

Bum

[M2]

Originally Posted by 757690

Braun has already made more money off of Baseball than Armstrong could ever dream of making off of cycling.

That is so wrong it's comical. Lance Armstrong, thanks to his sponsorship deals and what not, is one of the richest athletes on the planet. His net worth has been estimated at $125 million. Braun's made $13 million to date, most of his earnings will come in the future thanks to his current megadeal. Even after that, once you figure in taxes and personal spending, Armstrong's going to be worth a whole lot more than Braun.

Originally Posted by 757690

I can think of 105 million reasons why Braun would and could hire anyone he needed to help pass the drug tests.

Braun played at the University of Miami, where many of the PED users came from. It's likely that he's been using PED's since before he was drafted.

Braun didn't have $105 million when he was in college. So whatever it is he supposedly did to start beating the system while at UMiami wasn't terribly expensive.

And now for the Pandora's Box you've opened up. Why isn't UMiami more of a factory if it's able to churn out superplayers like Braun? It's good, but it should be better if it's better-playing-through-chemistry ground zero. And why just baseball? UMiami plays a lot of sports. There's a lot of money and glory beyond the game of baseball. If UMiami is dirty then this is way bigger than baseball.

And how did Braun ever get caught if he's always known how to beat the system?

Seriously, you just yelled fire in a movie theater. All I'm asking is where's the fire?

[M2]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

Why would Braun have needed to start taking steroids at a young age?

Because if he didn't, if he's just really good at baseball, then you've got his completely normal career pattern to explain. If you want to insist he started taking roids at some random point during his MLB career, then I'm going to need to know when and I'm going to want an explanation as to why it seemingly hasn't done much in terms of his performance.

Originally Posted by Bumstead

It is odd isn't that the power numbers are pretty much down all over baseball with even the current testing process in place? So, are we to believe that Steroids/HGH had no effect on players abilities in the 80's and 90's? Maybe it was just a blip of so many great hitters? Or really bad pitchers? So confusing...

Been over this, the power numbers aren't really down that much. HRs are still way higher than they were before the 1993 expansion. And the power numbers didn't drop at all in the mid-2000s when testing started.

And I'm calling foul. You don't get to argue what I've got quoted right above here and also that testing is super-easy to beat (which you've done in other posts in this thread). It's one or the other. Either testing is generally effective and it's done a lot to clean up the game or it's a sham and the game is as dirty as it ever was.

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by M2

Because if he didn't, if he's just really good at baseball, then you've got his completely normal career pattern to explain. If you want to insist he started taking roids at some random point during his MLB career, then I'm going to need to know when and I'm going to want an explanation as to why it seemingly hasn't done much in terms of his performance.



Been over this, the power numbers aren't really down that much. HRs are still way higher than they were before the 1993 expansion. And the power numbers didn't drop at all in the mid-2000s when testing started.

And I'm calling foul. You don't get to argue what I've got quoted right above here and also that testing is super-easy to beat (which you've done in other posts in this thread). It's one or the other. Either testing is generally effective and it's done a lot to clean up the game or it's a sham and the game is as dirty as it ever was.

As to the first part of your quote (I don't really know how to break these up...so accept my apology for just starting below the whole thing), do you think baseball doesn't become more difficult as one progresses up the ladder? Do you think that as Braun has gotten older and the competition has become better that his recovery time is not as quick? Regardless of your perception of those items and the decision Ryan Braun made about those thoughts, all I said is that it is almost inconceivable that Ryan Braun didn't accurately test positive in that test. He did. The only way he didn't is if BOTH samples were tampered with. Nobody has even suggested that happened.

Calling foul? Nice! I love it! Just because the tests aren't that difficult to get around doesn't mean every player wants to mess with that. Most players would probably just rather not take the chance; as I recall many players suddenly shrunk in size once testing started (I-Rod). However, that doesn't mean all players are unwilling to take the risk or go through the annoyance of trying to beat the system. And, yes, there is a middle area here, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I don't think the game is "as dirty as it ever was," but I don't think they have cleaned it up yet and I don't believe these random testings are that hard to beat.

Bum

[M2]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

I just don't understand how you can insist that it's so unlikely that Braun may have been doping since he was in college. Unfortunately, we don't have the benefit of the whole story for most athletes, but Armstrong is certainly an interesting case study. Armstrong, just like Braun, was one hell of an athlete before he started doping. Read up on how highly regarded he was even as a teenage athlete.

Armstrong (by his own admission) started doping in his early twenties, almost twenty years ago. He never got caught during that entire time. While he had an elaborate system in place by the end of it all, I have serious doubts that was the case in the early 90s when he started, or at every point along the way. Make no mistake about it, his elaborate steroid regime became more and more complex as the promotional dollars started pouring in.

A) I don't need to read up on how highly Armstrong was regarded. He was an instant celebrity in the cycling world, a bigger draw at events like the Tour Du Pont than Greg LeMond before Armstrong had even won anything. People used to head out to see road races to catch a glimpse of the boy wonder. I was one of them.

B) Armstrong had an entire team and profession that was well-versed in PEDs guiding his usage. Lance was always part of a large and coordinated operation. It got more sophisticated as the sport introduced testing (and pretty much every team in cycling was doing things similar to U.S. Postal), but he always had doctors, managers, trainers and teammates working with him. Doping in cycling goes back decades before Armstrong showed up. He was never a lone agent.

C) Braun would have had to run an Armstrong-like operation largely by himself. He didn't have the resources of a team aiding his usage. And he would have to figure all of this out in college and then run his regimen flawlessly until 2011. Could it be done? Sure. But it would be a really impressive feat on Braun's part. It's a lot of planning and execution and, to date, no one's found any trail he left behind. And you don't get to call 2011 the tip of Braun's iceberg without, you know, producing evidence of the actual iceberg.

Your story is mostly holes. And this is the problem Braun's accusers have. If you want to argue he was guilty that one time in 2011, then we're back to dead horse kicking. If you want to argue he's been using his whole life, it's all accusation and no evidence.

[wolfboy]

Originally Posted by M2

A) I don't need to read up on how highly Armstrong was regarded. He was an instant celebrity in the cycling world, a bigger draw at events like the Tour Du Pont than Greg LeMond before Armstrong had even won anything. People used to head out to see road races to catch a glimpse of the boy wonder. I was one of them.

B) Armstrong had an entire team and profession that was well-versed in PEDs guiding his usage. Lance was always part of a large and coordinated operation. It got more sophisticated as the sport introduced testing (and pretty much every team in cycling was doing things similar to U.S. Postal), but he always had doctors, managers, trainers and teammates working with him. Doping in cycling goes back decades before Armstrong showed up. He was never a lone agent.

C) Braun would have had to run an Armstrong-like operation largely by himself. He didn't have the resources of a team aiding his usage. And he would have to figure all of this out in college and then run his regimen flawlessly until 2011. Could it be done? Sure. But it would be a really impressive feat on Braun's part. It's a lot of planning and execution and, to date, no one's found any trail he left behind. And you don't get to call 2011 the tip of Braun's iceberg without, you know, producing evidence of the actual iceberg.

Your story is mostly holes. And this is the problem Braun's accusers have. If you want to argue he was guilty that one time in 2011, then we're back to dead horse kicking. If you want to argue he's been using his whole life, it's all accusation and no evidence.

I'm not a Braun accuser, so I'd prefer it if you didn't lump me in. Unfortunately, we don't have the benefit of the whole story here, and we rarely do elsewhere. For that reason alone, I'm not going to crucify the guy as a doper. At the same time, I think it's fair to say it's plausible the guy's been doping since college. I understand that cycling has a long history of doping, but so does baseball. And quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if a story came out tomorrow stating that the entire athletic department at the U has been running a coordinated doping program for its athletes.

Are there "holes in my story?" I guess, but I'm not building a case against the guy. I'm just saying that with the information that's out there, it's not a stretch to imagine that Braun might be doping now, and he might have been doping for a long, long time.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

As to the first part of your quote (I don't really know how to break these up...so accept my apology for just starting below the whole thing), do you think baseball doesn't become more difficult as one progresses up the ladder?

It never did for Braun. He's consistently crushed the ball his whole life. There is no way when looking at his numbers to come up with a magic moment where his performance took off. Your generalities in this case are meaningless.

Originally Posted by Bumstead

all I said is that it is almost inconceivable that Ryan Braun didn't accurately test positive in that test.

Don't care at all about that. Whether someone believes he's guilty or not guilty on that test is immaterial to me.



Where I come in on Braun is that he creates massive complications for anyone who wants to claim he was using. He doesn't fit into a little, neat box. It's a much simpler world for those who want to be upset at players for using PEDs if you sweep Braun under the rug.

Originally Posted by Bumstead

Calling foul? Nice! I love it! Just because the tests aren't that difficult to get around doesn't mean every player wants to mess with that. Most players would probably just rather not take the chance; as I recall many players suddenly shrunk in size once testing started (I-Rod).

So your response to me noting that you're speculating both sides of the coin is more speculation? Well, color me impressed. You clearly have an inexhaustible pool of things you can make up on this subject.

Originally Posted by Bumstead

And, yes, there is a middle area here, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I don't think the game is "as dirty as it ever was," but I don't think they have cleaned it up yet and I don't believe these random testings are that hard to beat.

I've got to believe that when you re-read that you're going to recognize it holds together about as well as a puddle of goo. I mean you're just blatantly trying to construct an alternate reality in which the opposing viewpoints you've adopted can somehow coexist.

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by M2

It never did for Braun. He's consistently crushed the ball his whole life. There is no way when looking at his numbers to come up with a magic moment where his performance took off. Your generalities in this case are meaningless.



Don't care at all about that. Whether someone believes he's guilty or not guilty on that test is immaterial to me.



Where I come in on Braun is that he creates massive complications for anyone who wants to claim he was using. He doesn't fit into a little, neat box. It's a much simpler world for those who want to be upset at players for using PEDs if you sweep Braun under the rug.



So your response to me noting that you're speculating both sides of the coin is more speculation? Well, color me impressed. You clearly have an inexhaustible pool of things you can make up on this subject.



I've got to believe that when you re-read that you're going to recognize it holds together about as well as a puddle of goo. I mean you're just blatantly trying to construct an alternate reality in which the opposing viewpoints you've adopted can somehow coexist.

Actually, throughout this whole process I have said this:

1) Braun's test was positive and I believe that he doped. (I don't care whether you care or not) And I argued that the environment couldn't create the positive result. Nobody on here has produced in evidence that Testosterone levels can increase without tampering regardless of the environment. I have asked how this is possible many times without one answer.

2) The use of steroids in baseball hurts baseball's credibility in my eyes.

3) MLB should stop talking about how great their testing is when it's not that difficult for players to get around it.

That's all I have said. Anything else is just fabrication on your part. I did not argue how long Braun had used or if it had any affect (I don't care how long he has used). I did not argue whether it even made a difference in baseball outcomes or power production (I think it does but that has not been my argument). I said the 3 things above. Anything else you want to argue or associate with me is just pure fabrication. There was some unproductive "discussion" with a poster, but that's about par for the course on here.

IMHO I think we are arguing two different things that aren't necessarily entwined, but that's just what I think. The picture was funny; I liked it!

Carry on

Bum

[M2]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

At the same time, I think it's fair to say it's plausible the guy's been doping since college. I understand that cycling has a long history of doping, but so does baseball. And quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if a story came out tomorrow stating that the entire athletic department at the U has been running a coordinated doping program for its athletes.

Are there "holes in my story?" I guess, but I'm not building a case against the guy. I'm just saying that with the information that's out there, it's not a stretch to imagine that Braun might be doping now, and he might have been doping for a long, long time.

Sure, but that's mostly imagination. If Braun has been using since college, that's potentially a big, messy story with fallout across almost every sport in the U.S. and a list of conspirators and enablers that extend almost as far as the eye can see. Mostly, I don't see the point in starting down that road given the flimsy amount of evidence to support it.

[757690]

Originally Posted by M2

C) Braun would have had to run an Armstrong-like operation largely by himself. He didn't have the resources of a team aiding his usage. And he would have to figure all of this out in college and then run his regimen flawlessly until 2011. Could it be done? Sure. But it would be a really impressive feat on Braun's part. It's a lot of planning and execution and, to date, no one's found any trail he left behind. And you don't get to call 2011 the tip of Braun's iceberg without, you know, producing evidence of the actual iceberg.

Your story is mostly holes. And this is the problem Braun's accusers have. If you want to argue he was guilty that one time in 2011, then we're back to dead horse kicking. If you want to argue he's been using his whole life, it's all accusation and no evidence.

That's just nonsense. No offense, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Athletes have been beating the system for decades. It's really not that hard. Actually, catching an offender is harder and rarer. It requires perfect timing by the league. If Braun is an evil genius, than so is Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, J.C. Romero, A-Rod, Edinson Volquez, Marlon Byrd and dozens of other players.

And Braun surely had help in college. All big time college programs have tons of money and support, and volumes have been written about how college locker rooms are more like labs. Doping is a major part of sports, both pro and college. it's everywhere that money can be made.

[edabbs44]

Where I come in on Braun is that he creates massive complications for anyone who wants to claim he was using. He doesn't fit into a little, neat box. It's a much simpler world for those who want to be upset at players for using PEDs if you sweep Braun under the rug.

M2, can I ask why you believe this?

[757690]

Originally Posted by M2

That is so wrong it's comical. Lance Armstrong, thanks to his sponsorship deals and what not, is one of the richest athletes on the planet. His net worth has been estimated at $125 million. Braun's made $13 million to date, most of his earnings will come in the future thanks to his current megadeal. Even after that, once you figure in taxes and personal spending, Armstrong's going to be worth a whole lot more than Braun.



Braun didn't have $105 million when he was in college. So whatever it is he supposedly did to start beating the system while at UMiami wasn't terribly expensive.

And now for the Pandora's Box you've opened up. Why isn't UMiami more of a factory if it's able to churn out superplayers like Braun? It's good, but it should be better if it's better-playing-through-chemistry ground zero. And why just baseball? UMiami plays a lot of sports. There's a lot of money and glory beyond the game of baseball. If UMiami is dirty then this is way bigger than baseball.

And how did Braun ever get caught if he's always known how to beat the system?

Seriously, you just yelled fire in a movie theater. All I'm asking is where's the fire?

I stand corrected; however, let me rephrase.

Ryan Braun will make more money than Lance Armstrong. Remember, Braun does endorsements as well. Anyway, the point is that Braun clearly has had the resources to avoid getting caught. He got caught the same way everyone else has gotten caught. He was unlucky.

The way the system works, you only will get caught if you get tested within a day or two of taking. Players only get tested a few days a season. They only have to take a few times during the season to maintain their advantage. They all just take the risk that the days that they are tested are not the days that they take.

Concerning Miami. Why do you think the football team doesn't use PED's? And U of Miami has one of the best track records of sending players to the majors.