Michael Bourn - CLE

[Tribefan33]

Originally Posted by mth123

Not seeing it. Exactly where did they improve from last season? Swisher was a decent addition, but he doesn't offset the loss of Shin Soo Choo. Bourn is a good CF and lead-off guy and probably moves the needle a bit. The rest are just treading water IMO. Mark Reynolds in, Travis Hafner out. Drew Stubbs isn't much. Rotation is still poor IMO.

Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really

Same with Hafner and Reynolds, last 3 years Reynolds has 82 HRs to Hafners 38, 70 Doubles to Hafners 51 and again he stays healthy, so thats another HUGE upgrade, i mean if you cant see a almost 50 HR diffrence isn't incredibly significant then idk what to tell you other then you more then likley cant even spell the word baseball let alone should be talking about it

what about adding Bourn over Damon/Carerra/Cunningham?
or Chisenhall over Hannahan?


but its clear you just wanted to troll and get owned while looking like a fool in the process, and thats fine, but do some research next time chump

[texasdave]

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really

Same with Hafner and Reynolds, last 3 years Reynolds has 82 HRs to Hafners 38, 70 Doubles to Hafners 51 and again he stays healthy, so thats another HUGE upgrade, i mean if you cant see a almost 50 HR diffrence isn't incredibly significant then idk what to tell you other then you more then likley cant even spell the word baseball let alone should be talking about it

what about adding Bourn over Damon/Carerra/Cunningham?
or Chisenhall over Hannahan?


but its clear you just wanted to troll and get owned while looking like a fool in the process, and thats fine, but do some research next time chump

If you want to come onto this board and discuss baseball, that is fine. The more the merrier. However, this board is not the place to disparage other posters. So how about showing a little respect and keeping your posts on topic? That's not too much to ask, is it? Thanks.

[dabvu2498]

Originally Posted by texasdave

If you want to come onto this board and discuss baseball, that is fine. The more the merrier. However, this board is not the place to disparage other posters. So how about showing a little respect and keeping your posts on topic? That's not too much to ask, is it? Thanks.

Agreed. The name-calling, in particular, has no place on this board. If you disagree with another poster, you can make your argument in a civil manner.

[BlackPete Ibold]

I'd say the Tribe is better but still going to have a mediocre record due to bad pitching.

Also, adding Reynolds and Stubbs might make wind farming a more popular alternative energy source option for the greater Cleveland area, but probably won't help the baseball team that much

[Vander]

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

Swisher doesn't offset of the loss of Choo? Uh what? in what universe?
in the last 3 years Swisher has 76 HRs to Choos 46, Swisher has 99 Doubles to Choos 85, Swisher had 230 Walks to Choos 192, and Swisher has had the same or better WAR 2 of those 3 years, and Swisher actually stays healthy, offensive wise Swisher was a HUGE upgrade and its not even close really

Same with Hafner and Reynolds, last 3 years Reynolds has 82 HRs to Hafners 38, 70 Doubles to Hafners 51 and again he stays healthy, so thats another HUGE upgrade, i mean if you cant see a almost 50 HR diffrence isn't incredibly significant then idk what to tell you other then you more then likley cant even spell the word baseball let alone should be talking about it

what about adding Bourn over Damon/Carerra/Cunningham?
or Chisenhall over Hannahan?


but its clear you just wanted to troll and get owned while looking like a fool in the process, and thats fine, but do some research next time chump

First of all, you're coming off as an immature child desperately seeking attention in this post. Bad form, man...

Second of all, there are a few flaws in your reasoning. First of all, why are you focusing on three years instead of just last year? Going on three years includes two years ago when Choo was injury-stricken and had a horrible year. That one year completely tilts the scales to Swisher (of course, you knew that, which is why you picked three years). If you look at just last year, then Swisher and Choo are pretty equivalent, but different. Choo has more speed and OBP, but Swisher has the edge on power. Swisher was also streakier, whereas Choo was a consistent .300 hitter from the lead-off spot (only hit .227 from the 3 hole).

The differences are far more nuanced than you make them out to be. Your offense is better this year than last (not because of Swisher, but as a whole), but your line up is going to be frustrating from the strikeouts. Also, while Stubbs has potential, he's most likely going to be a black hole in your lineup like he was in ours.

But all of that is meaningless unless your rotation can keep you in the game. Are you really confident in a rotation that is led by Masterson and Ubaldo? I wouldn't be... The indians will be better this year, but I think the best you can really hope for is to hover around .500. Remember, last year, the Indians had the worst run differential in the American League, and second to worst in the majors (only the Astros were worse). That's a lot of ground to cover in one offseason. Cleveland is definitely helping themselves and are on the right path, but I think it's a little early to start bragging...

EDIT: One more thing...

LOL Loshe sucked in the AL

His ERA last year against the American League was 1.66. If that's your definition of "sucked", then what about Ubaldo?

[Tribefan33]

Originally Posted by texasdave

If you want to come onto this board and discuss baseball, that is fine. The more the merrier. However, this board is not the place to disparage other posters. So how about showing a little respect and keeping your posts on topic? That's not too much to ask, is it? Thanks.

im not going to show respect to people who respond to my post in a pure biased manner because thats not showing respect to me. come informed or not at all to my post

[Tribefan33]

Originally Posted by Vander

First of all, you're coming off as an immature child desperately seeking attention in this post. Bad form, man...

Second of all, there are a few flaws in your reasoning. First of all, why are you focusing on three years instead of just last year? Going on three years includes two years ago when Choo was injury-stricken and had a horrible year. That one year completely tilts the scales to Swisher (of course, you knew that, which is why you picked three years). If you look at just last year, then Swisher and Choo are pretty equivalent, but different. Choo has more speed and OBP, but Swisher has the edge on power. Swisher was also streakier, whereas Choo was a consistent .300 hitter from the lead-off spot (only hit .227 from the 3 hole).

The differences are far more nuanced than you make them out to be. Your offense is better this year than last (not because of Swisher, but as a whole), but your line up is going to be frustrating from the strikeouts. Also, while Stubbs has potential, he's most likely going to be a black hole in your lineup like he was in ours.

But all of that is meaningless unless your rotation can keep you in the game. Are you really confident in a rotation that is led by Masterson and Ubaldo? I wouldn't be... The indians will be better this year, but I think the best you can really hope for is to hover around .500. Remember, last year, the Indians had the worst run differential in the American League, and second to worst in the majors (only the Astros were worse). That's a lot of ground to cover in one offseason. Cleveland is definitely helping themselves and are on the right path, but I think it's a little early to start bragging...

EDIT: One more thing...



His ERA last year against the American League was 1.66. If that's your definition of "sucked", then what about Ubaldo?

first of all no i didnt
second of all you dont wanna go back 3 years? fine lets go back 5, or even 7 years. 1 year is too small of a sample size but you knew last year was a year choo was almost on Swishers level but not quite but you already knew that and its why you choose just 1 year. Choo's BA and OBP is only slightly better then Swisher, but again Swisher plays more games and stays healthy so that outweighs BA And OBP because those mean nothing if he's not even seeing PT, which alone makes Swisher the better player.

if you wanna go back the last 5 years and compare stats, Swisher has 129 HRs to Choos 80. Swisher has 4 more Doubles.

a healthy Masterson was one of the best pitchers in all of baseball so yes im confident in a rotation led by him, not Jimenez so much but he's not going to be leading the rotation (probably the #3 guy at best, more then likley the #4) so im not sure where thats comming from.

why just cherry pick what he did last year? what about 01-06 when he was in Minnesota and the lowest his ERA ever was was 4.18?

[Tribefan33]

Originally Posted by BlackPete Ibold

I'd say the Tribe is better but still going to have a mediocre record due to bad pitching.

i doubt it, other teams still have to stop them from scoring which wont happen often

[BlackPete Ibold]

DO NOT FEED

[Vander]

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

im not going to show respect to people who respond to my post in a pure biased manner because thats not showing respect to me. come informed or not at all to my post

What you just basically said is that you refuse to show any respect for someone who has an opposing view from yours... Because they're just stupid... And stuff... That, good sir, is child-like. But I'll humor you because it's Saturday and I'm bored...

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

second of all you dont wanna go back 3 years? fine lets go back 5, or even 7 years. 1 year is too small of a sample size but you knew last year was a year choo was almost on Swishers level but not quite but you already knew that and its why you choose just 1 year. Choo's BA and OBP is only slightly better then Swisher, but again Swisher plays more games and stays healthy so that outweighs BA And OBP because those mean nothing if he's not even seeing PT, which alone makes Swisher the better player.

if you wanna go back the last 5 years and compare stats, Swisher has 129 HRs to Choos 80. Swisher has 4 more Doubles.

So basically, you believe that players don't change from year to year? What someone is right now is what they will be for the next three, five or even seven years?

The reason why I always go year to year with players is because they age, change batting stances, change approaches. They adapt. Three years ago, Johnny Cueto was a fairly good pitcher, but then he changed his wind-up to the Luis Tiant style that you see now. He went from good to great in one year. But if you take his stats in aggregate from the past three or even five years, you would think that he was just on a hot streak or getting lucky. Players evolve.

As for Choo and Swisher, by the stats, I was actually doing you a favor. If you look at the past five years, Choo blows Swisher out of the water. You bring up that Swisher had more home runs as if that is the only stat that counts, even though Choo leads in OPS, OBP, WAR and so many others. Basically, over the past five years, Swisher has more power, and that's it.

Oh, and Choo played more games than Swisher did last year...

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

a healthy Masterson was one of the best pitchers in all of baseball so yes im confident in a rotation led by him, not Jimenez so much but he's not going to be leading the rotation (probably the #3 guy at best, more then likley the #4) so im not sure where thats comming from.

You're confident in a rotation that had the second worst ERA in the American League last year (5.25) and did very little to actually improve on it? This is why people in this thread are skeptical about the Indians succeeding this year. You're not going to the playoffs if your team pitches that badly again this year.

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

why just cherry pick what he did last year? what about 01-06 when he was in Minnesota and the lowest his ERA ever was was 4.18?

Yes, and Chris Carpenter was a crappy pitcher as well because his best ERA with the Blue Jays was 4.09... Are you actually serious about this? A LOT has happened to Lohse since he was a Twin. You're basically talking about two different pitchers.

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

i doubt it, other teams still have to stop them from scoring which wont happen often

I sure hope that offense is lights out. I honestly hope I'm wrong because Cleveland fans have suffered... A lot... But I just don't see it.

Originally Posted by BlackPete Ibold

DO NOT FEED

*sigh*

Boredom got the better of me..

[Tribefan33]

Originally Posted by Vander

What you just basically said is that you refuse to show any respect for someone who has an opposing view from yours... Because they're just stupid... And stuff... That, good sir, is child-like. But I'll humor you because it's Saturday and I'm bored...



So basically, you believe that players don't change from year to year? What someone is right now is what they will be for the next three, five or even seven years?

The reason why I always go year to year with players is because they age, change batting stances, change approaches. They adapt. Three years ago, Johnny Cueto was a fairly good pitcher, but then he changed his wind-up to the Luis Tiant style that you see now. He went from good to great in one year. But if you take his stats in aggregate from the past three or even five years, you would think that he was just on a hot streak or getting lucky. Players evolve.

As for Choo and Swisher, by the stats, I was actually doing you a favor. If you look at the past five years, Choo blows Swisher out of the water. You bring up that Swisher had more home runs as if that is the only stat that counts, even though Choo leads in OPS, OBP, WAR and so many others. Basically, over the past five years, Swisher has more power, and that's it.

Oh, and Choo played more games than Swisher did last year...



You're confident in a rotation that had the second worst ERA in the American League last year (5.25) and did very little to actually improve on it? This is why people in this thread are skeptical about the Indians succeeding this year. You're not going to the playoffs if your team pitches that badly again this year.



Yes, and Chris Carpenter was a crappy pitcher as well because his best ERA with the Blue Jays was 4.09... Are you actually serious about this? A LOT has happened to Lohse since he was a Twin. You're basically talking about two different pitchers.



I sure hope that offense is lights out. I honestly hope I'm wrong because Cleveland fans have suffered... A lot... But I just don't see it.



*sigh*

Boredom got the better of me..

no the only reason you went with 1 year is because its the only year Choo might have been comparable to Swisher, no other logical reason possible. Choo does not blow Swisher out of the water in any stat, he has a slight advantage but nothing more but keep trying maybe some day you'll know what you're talking about, oh and Swisher has played alot more game then Choo the last 3 years, or 5 years, or whatever you want to go by outside of 1 year cherry picking stat.

i thought you said players change from year to year? so how come Choo can change from year to year but the Indians pitching staff cant? LOL what a moron, owned by you're own highly failed logic.

and where did i say Loshe was bad? he i said he sucked in the AL which was true, what you cant comprehend english?

[Vander]

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

no the only reason you went with 1 year is because its the only year Choo might have been comparable to Swisher, no other logical reason possible. Choo does not blow Swisher out of the water in any stat, he has a slight advantage but nothing more but keep trying maybe some day you'll know what you're talking about, oh and Swisher has played alot more game then Choo the last 3 years, or 5 years, or whatever you want to go by outside of 1 year cherry picking stat.

i thought you said players change from year to year? so how come Choo can change from year to year but the Indians pitching staff cant? LOL what a moron, owned by you're own highly failed logic.

and where did i say Loshe was bad? he i said he sucked in the AL which was true, how mentally challenged are you that you cant comprehend a simple sentance?

Yeah, this is meme worthy...

Originally Posted by BlackPete Ibold

DO NOT FEED

... Yeah... My bad...

[Tribefan33]

its ok you dont understand how baseball works, you were proven wrong in every post you're butthurt i understand. just do some research and dont troll my post next time and maybe you'll be right just once

Originally Posted by Vander

Yeah, this is meme worthy...




... Yeah... My bad...

[Gallen5862]

Originally Posted by Tribefan33

no the only reason you went with 1 year is because its the only year Choo might have been comparable to Swisher, no other logical reason possible. Choo does not blow Swisher out of the water in any stat, he has a slight advantage but nothing more but keep trying maybe some day you'll know what you're talking about, oh and Swisher has played alot more game then Choo the last 3 years, or 5 years, or whatever you want to go by outside of 1 year cherry picking stat.

i thought you said players change from year to year? so how come Choo can change from year to year but the Indians pitching staff cant? LOL what a moron, owned by you're own highly failed logic.

and where did i say Loshe was bad? he i said he sucked in the AL which was true, what you cant comprehend english?

This board does not allow attacks on posters. Discuss ideas without attacking a poster.

[Trajinous]

Tribes fans are silly. A baseball team's line-up is moot when said baseball team doesn't have even one solid starter. Good job on landing Bourn by not having to give up a draft pick, Cleveland rocks!