Bengals v. Vikings

[WMR]

That is cool. I don't fault you for that. Believe me, as a long-suffering Bengals fan, I've been explaining away crappy performances longer than I can remember.

[Sabo Fan]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

I don't use completion percentage in my ranking of QBs. It isn't really a very good measuring stick in measuring overall QB-effectiveness. Sort of reminds me of BA in a way.

Well, I would contend that every game in the NFL is "a big game." Some of the performances engineered by Palmer, esp. in the 2nd half last year, were nothing short of amazing for a 1st year starter. Some much more impressive starts and performances than ones put together by Ben Roethlisberger. I'm not calling him Dan Marino just yet, however. I'm only talking about Carson's POTENTIAL for greatness as well as how PROMISING his early returns have been.

Nothing I've said about Daunte has been said with the intention of "ripping him." I'm into analysis, and I'm very curious to see how Daunte performs without his security blanket, and, to this point, he has suffered mightily.

Saying that I would take Carson over Daunte is NOT a slam on Daunte. Rather, it demonstrates in what sort of esteem I hold Carson Palmer. I think the guy has got the tools and the BRAINS (just as important; lacking by many) to be one of the greats. Not to mention a surrounding cast that can truly enable him to shine.

As for other big game performances: They don't give those Heisman's out for good looks. Carson set a lot of PAC-10 records at USC and played in enough big games, performing admirably, that I've got no doubt that any situation isn't going to "be too big for him."

I don't know about relating batting average to completion percentage. True, a QB's completion percentage depends on his recievers somewhat, but I think it's a fairly good measure, as are passer rating and quarterback rating.

Like you, I like what I see from Carson Palmer. However, I'd like to see more before I throw accolades upon him. You mention his supporting cast that "enables him to shine." Interesting that you don't give the same leeway to Culpepper. In the past Culpepper had a supporting cast that allowed him to shine, yet you passed it off as merely a byproduct of have Randy Moss to throw to. Yet Palmer's current success is because of his talent alone? Don't think so.

Put Palmer in Daunte's current position: no running game to speak of, the loss of Chad Johnson (only moreso, because I think we can all agree Moss is the better player), two starting offensive linemen gone, and a new offensive coordinator. What would Palmer's stat line look like then? My guess is that it wouldn't be that great. Would you be as supportive of Palmer then as you are now. I doubt it.

What I'm trying to say is if all things were equal, how would you rank Palmer and Culpepper? Granted there is a significant age difference, but in his prime do you think Palmer can put up numbers like Culpepper's 2004 season? You'd say yes I'm sure, but I don't know, the sample size is just too small. Me, I'd take the known quantity over the one that, to me, is still somewhat unproven.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by Sabo Fan

I don't know about relating batting average to completion percentage. True, a QB's completion percentage depends on his recievers somewhat, but I think it's a fairly good measure, as are passer rating and quarterback rating.

Like you, I like what I see from Carson Palmer. However, I'd like to see more before I throw accolades upon him. You mention his supporting cast that "enables him to shine." Interesting that you don't give the same leeway to Culpepper. In the past Culpepper had a supporting cast that allowed him to shine, yet you passed it off as merely a byproduct of have Randy Moss to throw to. Yet Palmer's current success is because of his talent alone? Don't think so.

Put Palmer in Daunte's current position: no running game to speak of, the loss of Chad Johnson (only moreso, because I think we can all agree Moss is the better player), two starting offensive linemen gone, and a new offensive coordinator. What would Palmer's stat line look like then? My guess is that it wouldn't be that great. Would you be as supportive of Palmer then as you are now. I doubt it.

What I'm trying to say is if all things were equal, how would you rank Palmer and Culpepper? Granted there is a significant age difference, but in his prime do you think Palmer can put up numbers like Culpepper's 2004 season? You'd say yes I'm sure, but I don't know, the sample size is just too small. Me, I'd take the known quantity over the one that, to me, is still somewhat unproven.

I would be interested to see what % of Daunte's TD passes and overall passes were attempted/caught by Randy Moss. I honestly don't know what those stats would look like, but it might provide a better idea as to just how much Daunte relied on Randy to put points on the board...

Likewise, although the sample size is much smaller, I would be interested to see similar splits between Carson and Chad Johnson.

The Bengals suffered more injuries last year than just about any other team in the NFL. A few key offensive cogs missed significant portions of the season: Carson still did great work.

Yes, as I said, I agree with you: Carson has got a long way to go and a lot to prove. I'm not considering the guys at the same age, however. I'm considering Carson in his 3rd season and Daunte in his 7th. From that perspective, combined with what I have seen from Carson and his progression, as well as his superior collegiate lineage, I take Carson. Just MO. I would certainly understand if a Vikes fan feels otherwise. That's why they're your team and the Bengals are my team. One of us will be proven correct, but, as they say, that's why they play the games.

[WMR]

This season's stats will probably be a better barometer of Carson Palmer's reliance on Chad Johnson. With the addition of these new receivers, will Carson utilize every receiver on the field, or will he resort to Chad Johnson more often than he should? (is that possible? LOL just ask Chad)

To me, thats the mark of a great QB. The ability to move through reads and complete passes to your third, fourth, and even fifth options on a consistent basis. That's what makes Peyton Manning so much fun to watch.

[Sea Ray]

What's the point in comparing what Culpepper did while Palmer was in high school?

Thus far Culpepper has had the superior career. The reason us Bengal fans would prefer Palmer to Culpepper is because Carson is the up and coming QB and Culpepper's career has peaked. We're looking to the future while the Vikings are on the downswing.

As to this discussion if I'm a Viking fan I'm thrilled with what Culpepper has given me and I'd be fine with hanging onto him for a few more years. But if you're offered Carson Palmer or Ben Roethlisberger for him you'd be fired as a GM if you said no.

[Sea Ray]

Granted there is a significant age difference, but in his prime do you think Palmer can put up numbers like Culpepper's 2004 season? You'd say yes I'm sure, but I don't know, the sample size is just too small. Me, I'd take the known quantity over the one that, to me, is still somewhat unproven.

Don't cop out and say you don't know. C'mon, we're fans here trying to evaluate talent. Palmer is unproven.

I'll go on record as saying yes, I think Palmer can put up numbers in his prime equal to Culpepper's 2004. No one knows for sure. But we all like to play GM and that's what running a team is all about. How accurately can you project a player.

Do you think Palmer will put up numbers as good as Culpepper's best year or are you going to plead the 5th again? Tell us yes or no and why you think that way. That's what this board is all about...

[WMR]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

But if you're offered Carson Palmer or Ben Roethlisberger for him you'd be fired as a GM if you said no.

No. You are wrong. Unequivocally and Absolutely. The Bengals would not trade Carson Palmer for Daunte Culpepper.

[WMR]

I'm comparing Palmer in his 2nd year to Culpepper in his 7th; and I like what I see.

[Sea Ray]

I understand not wanting to trade Palmer for Culpepper, but I don't think you would find too many NFL personnel guys who wouldn't if the two were the same age, made the same money, etc.

Who added the caveat "if the two were the same age, made the money etc"? They'll never be the same age so why add that in? You said you understand not trading Palmer for Daunte so we're in agreement. That's all I've been saying.

Now if you want to compare the two at the same age then you have to go back to their senior year in college. Palmer was a Heisman Trophy winner and was the #1 pick in the draft. Culpepper was the 5th QB taken that year, so the NFL personnel guys you refer to seem to have preferred Palmer.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

No. You are wrong. Unequivocally and Absolutely. The Bengals would not trade Carson Palmer for Daunte Culpepper.

I guess I didn't make my point clear. Let me rephrase it with more detail.

If I'm GM of the Minnesota Vikings and I'm offered Carson Palmer or Ben Roethlisberger one for one for Daunte Culpepper and I say "no thanks", I'll hang onto Culpepper, you'd be fired as GM of the Vikings.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

No. You are wrong. Unequivocally and Absolutely. The Bengals would not trade Carson Palmer for Daunte Culpepper.

Sorry about that Sea Ray, I mistook what you said as meaning that if you were the Steelers or Bengals, you'd be crazy for saying no to receiving Daunte for Carson or Ben.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

Sorry about that Sea Ray, I mistook what you said as meaning that if you were the Steelers or Bengals, you'd be crazy for saying no to receiving Daunte for Carson or Ben.

I'll have to quote you on this one: "try reading a post and make sure you actually understand it b/f you start ripping the poster's crdibility".

I suggest you follow your own advice next time.

[CTA513]

Originally Posted by Austin Kearns

I'll have to quote you on this one: "try reading a post and make sure you actually understand it b/f you start ripping the poster's crdibility".

I suggest you follow your own advice next time.

:runawaycr

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by Austin Kearns

I'll have to quote you on this one: "try reading a post and make sure you actually understand it b/f you start ripping the poster's crdibility".

I suggest you follow your own advice next time.

Well, he did apologize. Not something you see around here too often.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Well, he did apologize. Not something you see around here too often.

I do give WMR credit for that but I still think he was a little harsh to BR when it was a mistake anybody (including himself) could easily make.