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westofyou · 12-13-2002, 02:38 PM

Mike Sweeny for Alex Ochea

Alex Ochea for Robin Jennings and Todd Walker

Todd Walker for Blanco and Thigpen

------------------------------------------

Mike Sweeny for Blanco and Thigpen = 1 year of a RH platoon OF and a season 1/3 of a 2nd baseman, giving us the abilty to dump Pokey.

Now package this Blanco guy in the next trade.

M2 · 12-13-2002, 02:45 PM

What, the Cubs don't need a 2B? Or the White Sox? Or the Orioles? Or the Braves? Or the Marlins if they part with Luis Castillo? Or the Brewers? Or the Giants if Ray Durham plays OF? Or the Padres, who were willing to take on Jr.'s contract? Or the Royals (who might have taken a guy like Walker with prospects in exchange for a larger contract on their team)? Or the Indians? Or the A's? Or the Rangers?

Half the teams in baseball need a 2B and who knows what all of them can and can't afford. $3.4 million is a perfectly reasonable contract for most teams in this game.

The Reds picked up two extreme longshots for a good player who at 29 is in his peak years. That is a talent drain. That is the definition of a talent drain. The Reds gave up a guy who can play everyday and do it well (and I'm saying this as a guy who is no great Todd Walker fan) for some pocket lint.

It doesn't mean the Reds can't use that money elsewhere. It just means that they traded a quality player for no one we should ever expect to see in the majors. Good organizations manage to get something back, even in a salary dump.

guernsey · 12-13-2002, 02:49 PM

Quote:

What, the Cubs don't need a 2B?

No, the Cubs don't need a 2B. Bobby Hill.

djeternal · 12-13-2002, 02:50 PM

I'm not understanding some of you here. Some of you sound quite happy to see the Reds dumping salary, and not raising their budget. Grant it, that the Angels are Champs, but they are adding 30mil to their budget. Lindner is one of America's most richest people, yet we are barely raising the bar to add to the pay-roll, esp with the GAB, the CBA, and the new TV deal?

Allen talks as if the budget still hasn't been made. How can they not know at this time? If it's going up around $5-10 mil, as everyone is saying, you can only afford one good player, and knowing how this organization is being run, that one player will be our famous 1-yr rent-a-player.

I guess some of you are happy to have the Reds of the Nunallys and Stynes.

haassolo · 12-13-2002, 02:55 PM

Cubs have Bobby Hill and Gruz..., White Soxs have Harris and do not have any money, Marlins...no money, Giants...Kent and Durham...Royals...you serious they can't take the contract... A's aren't stupid and have a 2nd baseman, Indians...Guiterez....Rangers....trying to dump salary not added it. You are right, half the teams need second basemen like Walker, but can they afford Walker, is he a good choice for most of these teams. The hitting peak for players is 27, Walker had his best year and will never happen again. Boston will use him for year because they feel they can make a run and then he will be a FA next year. My question is would you want to keep Walker for a year and then not resing him and get nothing while at the same time having to cut cost on other things such as minor leaguers, Gabe White etc, or dump Walker use the money some place else and get two guys that we can develop. I choose the later, it makes finacial sense and talent sense.

12-13-2002, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeS21
BRO, what is it EXACTLY that you want the Reds to do?

Don't tell me what should have been done last year. What do you want them to do NOW

What I want them to do is what they have been telling us they would do for the past three years. How many times have we been told about "the Plan for 2003"? Well here we are, 2003, and now we find that the Reds are going to have to give away some of their players in order to meet budget. Im not averse to trades, I'll even trade Jr if the price is right. (I havent heard of a deal that qualifies so far) But essentially giving your talent away for players that MAY help us in 2006 doesnt seem like we are building for 2003 to me.

What exactly would I like them to do? How about celebrate the upcoming season in the new stadium rather than mourning it. By mourning it I mean crying about how they will have LESS money with the new stadium than before! Then apparently acting on this by giving walker away. Hey if they make a great trade later on, I promise I will say "WoW! Great job!", but until then I'm calling it what it is.

You make a good point in that you said everytime the Front Office opens their mouth, they are accused of lying. Think of Pavlov's dog and conditioned response.

I shouldnt have said cutting payroll, even though in my opinion, if you have to give a player away to fit payroll into the budget, you are in fact lowering it. I disagree with you in that any move where the payroll isnt even or higher will be viewed as dumping. Most fans recognize value vs dumping.

I apologise if I sound overly negative, because Im really not. Perhaps its seeing what Brown has done to my beloved Bengals and fear that Lindner will do the same to my favorite pro team in any sport.

Red Leader · 12-13-2002, 03:27 PM

Now there is some talk that the Red Sox are going to turn around and send Walker with some other prospects to the Padres for Sean Burroughs. I'll see if I can get the article from the Rocky Mountain News.

"While their is the slight possibility that the Red Sox got Walker in order to trade him -- the Rocky Mountain News has Walker rumored to be going San Diego as part of a package for Sean Burroughs -- it's far more likely that he'll be Boston's starting second baseman next year. If so, Sanchez, who has been used mostly at shortstop, would spend at least half the season in Triple-A learning how to play second base. He could join the Red Sox after the All-Star break to be used as a utilityman. "

guernsey · 12-13-2002, 03:28 PM

From Rotoworld

Quote:

Freddy Sanchez - 2B - Boston Red Sox Dec 13

With Todd Walker joining the Red Sox, Freddy Sanchez is expected to spend most of next year in Triple-A.

While their is the slight possibility that the Red Sox got Walker in order to trade him -- the Rocky Mountain News has Walker rumored to be going San Diego as past of a package for Sean Burroughs -- it's far more likely that he'll be Boston's starting second baseman next year. If so, Sanchez, who has been used mostly at shortstop, would spend at least half the season in Triple-A learning how to play second base. He could join the Red Sox after the All-Star break to be used as a utilityman.

If the BoSox package Todd to the Pads for Burroughs, princeton will go absolutely nuts!

princeton · 12-13-2002, 03:34 PM

you got that right

haassolo · 12-13-2002, 03:34 PM

That makes sense because the Sox are shopping Hillenbrand for Durazo.

Red Heeler · 12-13-2002, 04:33 PM

I don't understand how anybody can like this trade. To get Todd Walker, the Reds had to give up a useful major league player. Todd then gets better, and the Reds recieve a wing (Thigpen) and a prayer (Blanco). Blech!!!

Of couse this trade may allow us to keep Sean Casey and Aaron Boone. Problem is Casey OPS'ed .696 last year, Boone put up a .753, while Walker bested them both with a .783. Strange logic where you trade the best of the trio. Not to mention the fact that the Reds have far more palatable options at 3B and 1B than they do at 2B.

Well, there is the argument that Walker only had a year left on his contract. I would argue that he could have easily been resigned for about the same money.

M2 · 12-13-2002, 05:11 PM

haas, every study I've ever seen indicates that at age 27 you START your prime. It lasts for a few years (31 or 32 I believe).

As for your list of teams and their 2B options, nice collection of assumptions. I stated this in another thread, but it applies here: There's no particular skill involved in coming up with excuses for what you can't do, a smart team figures out what it can do.

Players more expensive than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Players less talented than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Players both more expensive and less talented than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Bet your life on it. Happens every year.

The Reds managed to get almost nothing for Todd Walker. Make excuses for it until the cows come home. This trade in and of itself does not help the Reds and, that being the case, Bowden had nothing to lose by waiting for a better deal to materialize.

And if the Red Sox (a team with an exceedingly thin minor league system) manages to package Todd Walker and some B and C prospects for Sean Burroughs then this trade takes a turn from bad to hideous.

J "Cooper" · 12-13-2002, 05:34 PM

The trade is bad.

I don't think they'll move Walker on because Epstein reported that Walker would be their opening day 2nd baseman for the 2003 year. He probably would've held his cards closer to the vest if he was thinking of moving him on.

Lastly, the BoSox and James have talked at length about their need for average regulars to fill in the gaps. Walker is a good regular who fits their win now strategy. IMO, he's not going anywhere.

It is a bad trade...really bad. We got took.

12-13-2002, 08:34 PM

Yeah, well...listen to this...

I figured Bowden would have gotton more in return for a Todd Walker who had a fine season in 2002.

12-13-2002, 03:27 PM	#172
Red Leader Puffy's Daddy Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Centerville, OH Posts: 20,422	Just to add to the post. Now there is some talk that the Red Sox are going to turn around and send Walker with some other prospects to the Padres for Sean Burroughs. I'll see if I can get the article from the Rocky Mountain News. "While their is the slight possibility that the Red Sox got Walker in order to trade him -- the Rocky Mountain News has Walker rumored to be going San Diego as part of a package for Sean Burroughs -- it's far more likely that he'll be Boston's starting second baseman next year. If so, Sanchez, who has been used mostly at shortstop, would spend at least half the season in Triple-A learning how to play second base. He could join the Red Sox after the All-Star break to be used as a utilityman. " __________________ 'When I'm not longer rapping, I want to open up an ice cream parlor and call myself Scoop Dogg.' -Snoop on his retirement Your Mom is happy.

12-13-2002, 08:34 PM	#179
HUMMER2 Guest Posts: n/a	Bad trade! Yeah, well...listen to this... I figured Bowden would have gotton more in return for a Todd Walker who had a fine season in 2002.

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12-13-2002, 02:38 PM	#166
westofyou breath Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: PDX Posts: 39,327	Mike Sweeny for Alex Ochea Alex Ochea for Robin Jennings and Todd Walker Todd Walker for Blanco and Thigpen ------------------------------------------ Mike Sweeny for Blanco and Thigpen = 1 year of a RH platoon OF and a season 1/3 of a 2nd baseman, giving us the abilty to dump Pokey. Now package this Blanco guy in the next trade.

12-13-2002, 02:45 PM	#167
M2 Posting in Dynarama Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Boston Posts: 26,668	What, the Cubs don't need a 2B? Or the White Sox? Or the Orioles? Or the Braves? Or the Marlins if they part with Luis Castillo? Or the Brewers? Or the Giants if Ray Durham plays OF? Or the Padres, who were willing to take on Jr.'s contract? Or the Royals (who might have taken a guy like Walker with prospects in exchange for a larger contract on their team)? Or the Indians? Or the A's? Or the Rangers? Half the teams in baseball need a 2B and who knows what all of them can and can't afford. $3.4 million is a perfectly reasonable contract for most teams in this game. The Reds picked up two extreme longshots for a good player who at 29 is in his peak years. That is a talent drain. That is the definition of a talent drain. The Reds gave up a guy who can play everyday and do it well (and I'm saying this as a guy who is no great Todd Walker fan) for some pocket lint. It doesn't mean the Reds can't use that money elsewhere. It just means that they traded a quality player for no one we should ever expect to see in the majors. Good organizations manage to get something back, even in a salary dump.

12-13-2002, 02:50 PM	#169
djeternal Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CINCINNATI Posts: 170	I'm not understanding some of you here. Some of you sound quite happy to see the Reds dumping salary, and not raising their budget. Grant it, that the Angels are Champs, but they are adding 30mil to their budget. Lindner is one of America's most richest people, yet we are barely raising the bar to add to the pay-roll, esp with the GAB, the CBA, and the new TV deal? Allen talks as if the budget still hasn't been made. How can they not know at this time? If it's going up around $5-10 mil, as everyone is saying, you can only afford one good player, and knowing how this organization is being run, that one player will be our famous 1-yr rent-a-player. I guess some of you are happy to have the Reds of the Nunallys and Stynes.

12-13-2002, 02:55 PM	#170
haassolo Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 523	Cubs have Bobby Hill and Gruz..., White Soxs have Harris and do not have any money, Marlins...no money, Giants...Kent and Durham...Royals...you serious they can't take the contract... A's aren't stupid and have a 2nd baseman, Indians...Guiterez....Rangers....trying to dump salary not added it. You are right, half the teams need second basemen like Walker, but can they afford Walker, is he a good choice for most of these teams. The hitting peak for players is 27, Walker had his best year and will never happen again. Boston will use him for year because they feel they can make a run and then he will be a FA next year. My question is would you want to keep Walker for a year and then not resing him and get nothing while at the same time having to cut cost on other things such as minor leaguers, Gabe White etc, or dump Walker use the money some place else and get two guys that we can develop. I choose the later, it makes finacial sense and talent sense.

12-13-2002, 03:34 PM	#174
princeton Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: princeton, nj Posts: 9,482	you got that right

12-13-2002, 03:34 PM	#175
haassolo Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 523	That makes sense because the Sox are shopping Hillenbrand for Durazo.

12-13-2002, 04:33 PM	#176
Red Heeler Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cookeville, TN Posts: 1,656	I don't understand how anybody can like this trade. To get Todd Walker, the Reds had to give up a useful major league player. Todd then gets better, and the Reds recieve a wing (Thigpen) and a prayer (Blanco). Blech!!! Of couse this trade may allow us to keep Sean Casey and Aaron Boone. Problem is Casey OPS'ed .696 last year, Boone put up a .753, while Walker bested them both with a .783. Strange logic where you trade the best of the trio. Not to mention the fact that the Reds have far more palatable options at 3B and 1B than they do at 2B. Well, there is the argument that Walker only had a year left on his contract. I would argue that he could have easily been resigned for about the same money.

12-13-2002, 05:11 PM	#177
M2 Posting in Dynarama Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Boston Posts: 26,668	haas, every study I've ever seen indicates that at age 27 you START your prime. It lasts for a few years (31 or 32 I believe). As for your list of teams and their 2B options, nice collection of assumptions. I stated this in another thread, but it applies here: There's no particular skill involved in coming up with excuses for what you can't do, a smart team figures out what it can do. Players more expensive than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Players less talented than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Players both more expensive and less talented than Todd Walker will be traded this offseason for decent returns. Bet your life on it. Happens every year. The Reds managed to get almost nothing for Todd Walker. Make excuses for it until the cows come home. This trade in and of itself does not help the Reds and, that being the case, Bowden had nothing to lose by waiting for a better deal to materialize. And if the Red Sox (a team with an exceedingly thin minor league system) manages to package Todd Walker and some B and C prospects for Sean Burroughs then this trade takes a turn from bad to hideous.

12-13-2002, 05:34 PM	#178
J "Cooper" Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Greenville, ohio Posts: 497	The trade is bad. I don't think they'll move Walker on because Epstein reported that Walker would be their opening day 2nd baseman for the 2003 year. He probably would've held his cards closer to the vest if he was thinking of moving him on. Lastly, the BoSox and James have talked at length about their need for average regulars to fill in the gaps. Walker is a good regular who fits their win now strategy. IMO, he's not going anywhere. It is a bad trade...really bad. We got took.