#1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

GAC · 04-12-2006, 09:56 AM

I was listening to Marty and Jones this morning on WLW, and they were debating the Roger Clemens situation.... will he, won't he?.... who cares?

Anyway - they both agreed that he is the greatest pitcher all-time.

If you had to choose one pitcher - and one pitcher only (none of these top 5 lists

)...

who would you choose?

Would it be a Clemens?

Or someone from the deadball era, such as a Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson?

Nolan Ryan?

Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson (my favorites growing up. Gibson was lights out! )

If I had to chose though, it would be Walter Johnson.

TRF · 04-12-2006, 09:57 AM

I'd go with Gibson, but he's only a hair better IMO than Clemens. Imagine Clemens pitching in the 60's!

Chip R · 04-12-2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GAC

I was listening to Marty and Jones this morning on WLW,

Why torture yourself?

GAC · 04-12-2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chip R

Why torture yourself?

I was driving home from the chiropractor, and I needed something to distract my mind from the pain/pinched nerve in my lower back.

They did it.

GAC · 04-12-2006, 10:01 AM

Another interesting note to consider is that waaaaay back then, those guys didn't have relief pitchers/bullpen.

registerthis · 04-12-2006, 10:22 AM

Sandy Koufax

zombie-a-go-go · 04-12-2006, 10:23 AM

Koufax. All the way.

westofyou · 04-12-2006, 11:00 AM

Lefty Grove or Ed Walsh before 1910

RedFanAlways1966 · 04-12-2006, 11:01 AM

The Big Train, Walter Johnson.

boobhat · 04-12-2006, 11:05 AM

sid fernandez, no wait, i would go with the rocket

savafan · 04-12-2006, 11:34 AM

Bronson Arroyo

Personally, I've always been a Nolan Ryan fan.

Cyclone792 · 04-12-2006, 11:53 AM

Walter Johnson.

Puffy · 04-12-2006, 12:07 PM

Jose Rijo

redsfanmia · 04-12-2006, 12:12 PM

Three-Finger Brown

RedsManRick · 04-12-2006, 12:15 PM

If it's one game, with the guy at the peak of his prime, I'll take Pedro Martinez circa 2000.

It's hard with the older guys to appropriately account for the proper context. The pre WWII guys with the shallower talent pool and frequent cheating via scuffing, etc., Koufax with the dead ball and higher mound, etc.

Pedro was absolutely insanely dominant in a homer friendly era in a hitter's park.

217 IP (7.5 IP/GS), 1.74 ERA (285 ERA+), 284 K (11.8 K/9), 0.74 WHIP.

Attitude wise on the mound, Pedro is probably as close as you'll get to a Bob Gibson -- just ask Jose Guillen.

BTW - to me, when you are talking about the "greatest of all-time" you are referring to their absolute peak skills. It's not "greatest career" in which it would be hard to refute Clemens, but the best if you took them at their best. For what it's worth, Bob Gibson's 1968 season, once adjusted for context, is pretty much worse than Pedro's 2000 in every way.

04-12-2006, 09:57 AM	#2
TRF Vavasor Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Amarillo, TX Posts: 12,669	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher I'd go with Gibson, but he's only a hair better IMO than Clemens. Imagine Clemens pitching in the 60's! __________________ "don't end up with a grandson with a dog collar."

04-12-2006, 10:01 AM	#5
GAC What Me Worry? Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Bellefontaine, Ohio Posts: 26,416	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher Another interesting note to consider is that waaaaay back then, those guys didn't have relief pitchers/bullpen. __________________ "panic" only comes from having real expectations

04-12-2006, 10:22 AM	#6
registerthis Harry Chiti Fan Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 5,872	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher Sandy Koufax __________________ We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

04-12-2006, 10:23 AM	#7
zombie-a-go-go Mod Law Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Miskatonic University Posts: 4,302	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher Koufax. All the way. __________________ "It's easier to give up. I'm not a very vocal player. I lead by example. I take the attitude that I've got to go out and do it. Because of who I am, I've got to give everything I've got to come back." -Ken Griffey Jr.

04-12-2006, 11:00 AM	#8
westofyou breath Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: PDX Posts: 39,325	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher Lefty Grove or Ed Walsh before 1910

04-12-2006, 09:56 AM	#1
GAC What Me Worry? Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Bellefontaine, Ohio Posts: 26,416	#1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher I was listening to Marty and Jones this morning on WLW, and they were debating the Roger Clemens situation.... will he, won't he?.... who cares? Anyway - they both agreed that he is the greatest pitcher all-time. If you had to choose one pitcher - and one pitcher only (none of these top 5 lists )... who would you choose? Would it be a Clemens? Or someone from the deadball era, such as a Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson? Nolan Ryan? Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson (my favorites growing up. Gibson was lights out! ) If I had to chose though, it would be Walter Johnson. __________________ "panic" only comes from having real expectations

04-12-2006, 11:01 AM	#9
RedFanAlways1966 For a Level Playing Field Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Oakwood, OH Posts: 11,240	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher The Big Train, Walter Johnson. __________________ Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.

04-12-2006, 11:05 AM	#10
boobhat Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Newark, Ohio Posts: 146	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher sid fernandez, no wait, i would go with the rocket

04-12-2006, 11:34 AM	#11
savafan Maple SERP Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 17,485	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher Bronson Arroyo Personally, I've always been a Nolan Ryan fan. __________________ This is the Cal Ripkin Jr. of typos. If you ask me to join your fantasy baseball league and I select Legolas in the first round, don't be angry at me. It's not my fault I've read up on the players and you haven't.

04-12-2006, 11:53 AM	#12
Cyclone792 Playoffs Join Date: May 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 6,233	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher Walter Johnson. __________________ *Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012* *Put an end to the Lost Decade.*

04-12-2006, 12:07 PM	#13
Puffy Puffy 3:16 Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Panama City Beach Posts: 13,668	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher Jose Rijo __________________ "I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum." - - Rowdy Roddy Piper "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I am not a big man" - - Fletch

04-12-2006, 12:12 PM	#14
redsfanmia Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,452	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher Three-Finger Brown __________________ I was in the ORG once, best 6 months of my life.

04-12-2006, 12:15 PM	#15
RedsManRick Stat Wanker Hodiernus Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 14,907	Re: #1 All-Time Greatest Pitcher If it's one game, with the guy at the peak of his prime, I'll take Pedro Martinez circa 2000. It's hard with the older guys to appropriately account for the proper context. The pre WWII guys with the shallower talent pool and frequent cheating via scuffing, etc., Koufax with the dead ball and higher mound, etc. Pedro was absolutely insanely dominant in a homer friendly era in a hitter's park. 217 IP (7.5 IP/GS), 1.74 ERA (285 ERA+), 284 K (11.8 K/9), 0.74 WHIP. Attitude wise on the mound, Pedro is probably as close as you'll get to a Bob Gibson -- just ask Jose Guillen. BTW - to me, when you are talking about the "greatest of all-time" you are referring to their absolute peak skills. It's not "greatest career" in which it would be hard to refute Clemens, but the best if you took them at their best. For what it's worth, Bob Gibson's 1968 season, once adjusted for context, is pretty much worse than Pedro's 2000 in every way. __________________ Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance. Last edited by RedsManRick; 04-12-2006 at 12:43 PM.

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