"Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?" ~ Jim Bouton
BTW...I think many managers in baseball realize the 1 inning closer is not the best usage of their bullpen, but the financial aspects of the game require players to be used that way for morale reasons. The best pitcher in your bullpen will become unhappy if he is not racking up saves so he can get a better contract. So managers are forced to use players this way to keep them happy.
The closer role is often more of a reward for being good, not an actual benefit to the team.
Closer = guy who can consistently get the job done year after year
Big Time Closer = Mo, Trevor
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.
All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive
I think it is and for many years has been vitally important that good pitchers pitch the late innings and finish games.
Yes, it may be that "closers" as we know them today, in exactly current form, have existed a short time.
But I think that begs the question.
Teams in the old days didn't have many relievers, many of them weren't very good - but teams usually saved the best relievers for the late innings.
Luis Arroyo of the Yankees is an example. I saw him pitch often in the early 1960s, he had a great year in 1961, and while not a 2013 style one-inning closer, he pitched the late innings in many key games and the Yankees won.
In 1961 he finished 54 games and pitched 119 innings. Not a "closer" in today's parlance, but a guy who finished games successfully.
The combo of Brosnan and Henry, similar. Not a closer in the exact sense of today, but finished lots of games successfully. I'm sure there are many other examples.
The fallacy of the anti-closer argument is that it defines the issue too narrowly.
I'd agree that having your "closer" used exactly like 2013 closers isn't that vital. Having one guy pitch every ninth inning isn't critical to me.
But I would also argue that having a very good pitcher or two available for the late innings is crucial. Whether you do it 1960s style or 2013 style is way less important. But the idea that virtually any major league caliber pitcher can be thrown out there in the late innings, I'd dispute.
In 1999 the Reds used Danny Graves and Scott Williamson as co-closers. It was very successful. Was that a 2013 style closer situation? I'd argue not. Still the Reds used two very good pitchers to finish off close games -- that's what I'd argue is necessary.
Last edited by Kc61; 03-13-2013 at 08:35 PM.
The quote you provided is excellent. It doesn't justify spending big time money on a closer, but it does add some justification for having defined roles in the bullpen. Over the course of a 162 game season, it has to be grueling mentally and physically. Knowing what is expected of you day in and day out can really help with the mental preparation portion. To me this is a big reason the closer-by-committee has not taken as much of a front seat as numbers imply it should. Numbers struggle to capture the mental portion of the game.
Now that being said, I think pitching coaches could do a better job of utilizing pitchers in different situations. Not all the time but some of the time. For example:
1 or 2 run lead you are home team and it is bottom of the 6th. STL has the bottom 3 in the lineup due up. Why not get Chapman up and running right away that way he can have his time and get warmed up to likely face 1-2-3 or 2-3-4 in the 8th inning, he will have plenty of time to get loose and get through his routine. Or if the guy in the 7th really struggles, he may be able to come get out of a jam late in the 7th, if he is ready in time, he may not be depending on how quickly it occurs. I agree this situation could and should happen more than it does.
However, let Champan have a defined role of pitching the last 3 outs or so in save situations, but occasionally utilize him differently, with plenty of forewarning. Let the other guys maintain their usual roles, but occasionally use your big bullet differently.
Last edited by Griffey012; 03-13-2013 at 08:42 PM.
"Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.
Baseball is poetry not math in my world and poring over numbers ruins the game for me. I know enough baseball to know that few guys can be "the guy" you can depend on to come in and slam the door with little anxiety. Several can do it for a year. Less can do it 2 or 3 and even less can do it for 5+. I think my examples of "big time" stand by themselves.
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.
All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...wn-final-pitch
From 1997 through 2011, the Yankees won 97.2 percent of the games they led heading into the ninth inning. The Pittsburgh Pirates, a team that featured infamous closers such as Rich Loiselle, Mike Williams, Jose Mesa, Matt Capps and Octavio Dotel during that span, won 94.7 percent of games they led going into the ninth. The San Diego Padres, where Hoffman pitched for many of those years, won 96.7 percent of their games.
We are talking about 1 or 2 extra losses per season from "big time" to "Pittsburgh Pirates closers".
Last edited by dougdirt; 03-13-2013 at 09:06 PM.
AtomicDumpling (03-14-2013)
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.
All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive
*BaseClogger* (03-14-2013)
Are those stats any different when you trim the sample down to just include save situations entering the ninth? I doubt it will differ much but I don't know.
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