Karl Ravech destroying Billy Hamilton on the BBTN podcast

[dougdirt]

Bonds was a great hitter before BALCO. The roids just made him a great POWER hitter.

What does that have to do with anything?

[CmdrCody]

What does that have to do with anything?

Hat does Bonds have to do with Hamilton?

[dougdirt]

Ha. Ha. The difference between below average runners and above average runners in Scouting is TWO tenths of a second and you're saying ONLY a tenth of a second faster than the fastest runners. That's pretty significant.

No, I said LESS THAN a tenth of a second. Billy Hamilton has been timed, by me, as fast as 3.64 from the left side to first base on a swing. I have seen more than a handful of guys below 3.74. I have timed guys that most people on this board have never heard of below 3.75. Do you think if there were hitters even in the realm of Barry Bonds at the plate that anyone on this board would have not heard of him? OF course not. That is my point. Barry Bonds hitting ability is so much more rare and unseen than Billy Hamilton's speed it isn't even funny. The two simply aren't comparable. Guys are close to being as fast as Hamilton and there are a few guys in any given year in the game that are close enough to it. There simply aren't guys close to the hitter that Bonds was until you get back to Ted Williams or Babe Ruth.

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Hat does Bonds have to do with Hamilton?

You clearly didn't read the thread. Someone compared the rarity of Hamilton's speed to the hitting ability to Bonds in its rarity. They aren't close.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I agree with Doug on this one. Nobody is saying Billy isn't the fastest guy in the league. But the actual difference between him and several other guys is miniscule. Less than a 1/10 of a second...think about that for a minute or two.

There's a bunch more to stealing bases than just being fast. Thus far in the bigs, we've seen that he is fast. But we haven't seen good reads of the pitcher, solid secondary leads, excellent jumps...at least not regularly. Quite often it's a bang-bang play or even the ball beating him there by quite a bit. He's got a long way to go before he should be compared to Henderson, Raines, etc. The only time I put him in with that group is when I talk about the effect he has on the pitcher and defense when he's on base. The amount of distraction he is causing. That's on par with those all-time great thieves. But that's mostly just because of his reputation coming into the league...not MLB results.

He's currently 7 for 9 in SB's. It really should be 6 for 9 or even 5 for 9. With a halfway decent tag, he'd be toast on two of those for sure.

[westofyou]

I usually side with you, but when scouts say Billy Hamilton has the fastest time they've ever clocked from home to first, it's not fair to say others are close, so it doesn't matter... He's the best ever as far as measurable speed goes, and it's not arguable.

That was in ST though right?

Fastest guys in MLB history Back during the "Field Day" era they used to have races around the bases as a show of speed:

Evar Swanson – 5’9 – CF/RF
Most Steals in a season: 33

Once again, a onetime Red. (note a pattern?) Swanson etched his name in the speed annals on 9/15/1929, at a field day held at Redland Field between games of a doubleheader. A $100 prize was offered up if anyone could circle the bases from a standing start in less than 13.8 seconds and beat Lobert’s aforementioned major league record. Among the participants were Swanson and former University of Cincinnati track and baseball star Ethan Allen. Swanson was able to circumnavigate the bases in full uniform in 13.4 seconds for a MLB record. No mention was made of Allen’s finish time. Swanson also played a little pro football and was most likely the first Red to also log time in the NFL.

Hamilton's inside the park HR was in that neighborhood.

[reds44]

Again, what kind of logic is that? He also could be 8 for 9 when you consider he looked safe on one of his CS.

He's 20/23 in his major league career stealing bases. That's really good.

And you know what could make the difference on these bang bang plays? A tenth of a second.

[reds44]

Reds' chances of making playoffs aren't looking good now and you still want Hamilton in the leadoff spot?





http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/200...your-lineup-by

The Reds chances of making the playoffs are pretty much no different now than they were in Spring Training so I wouldn't say that chances "aren't looking to good," but I absolutely keep running Hamilton out there in the leadoff spot every game. It would be different if the Reds had another high OBP guy to do it, but outside of Votto this is a low OBP team. I'm going to be interested to see what Votto's numbers look like with Hamilton on base compared to when he's not on.

[Raisor]

How is he going to learn to hit leadoff, steal bases, etc at the bottom of the order?
Don't worry about the short term cost of Billy batting leadoff. It's really not that big of a deal.
It's certainly not going to be the difference in the Reds making or missing the playoffs.
Now, in the playoffs if he has a 250 OBP for the entire year, then yes.. move him to #8 then.

If he hits lead off all year and has a 250 OBP Price and Walt should be fired.

[reds44]

If he hits lead off all year and has a 250 OBP Price and Walt should be fired.

He wouldn't.

[dougdirt]

How is he going to learn to hit leadoff, steal bases, etc at the bottom of the order?
Don't worry about the short term cost of Billy batting leadoff. It's really not that big of a deal.
It's certainly not going to be the difference in the Reds making or missing the playoffs.
Now, in the playoffs if he has a 250 OBP for the entire year, then yes.. move him to #8 then.

It fascinates me that people try and use a different approach in different parts of the lineup.

Look, I know that it happens. But it shouldn't. Get on base. Hit the ball hard. Those should be your goals no matter where you are batting in the lineup. Period.

[Raisor]

He wouldn't.

He wouldn't what?

[reds44]

Well I don't think he'll have a .250 OBP, but if he did he wouldn't hit leadoff all year.

[RedsLvr]

No, I said LESS THAN a tenth of a second. Billy Hamilton has been timed, by me, as fast as 3.64 from the left side to first base on a swing. I have seen more than a handful of guys below 3.74. I have timed guys that most people on this board have never heard of below 3.75. Do you think if there were hitters even in the realm of Barry Bonds at the plate that anyone on this board would have not heard of him? OF course not. That is my point. Barry Bonds hitting ability is so much more rare and unseen than Billy Hamilton's speed it isn't even funny. The two simply aren't comparable. Guys are close to being as fast as Hamilton and there are a few guys in any given year in the game that are close enough to it. There simply aren't guys close to the hitter that Bonds was until you get back to Ted Williams or Babe Ruth.

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You clearly didn't read the thread. Someone compared the rarity of Hamilton's speed to the hitting ability to Bonds in its rarity. They aren't close.

Alright. I understand your point. As for your Bonds argument, although you are correct nobody was even close to Barry Bonds. But he was a hall of fame talent who took a vigorous regimen of anabolic steroids. Hard to say if he would have posted those consecutive years of high OPS+. I think that had Griffey taken roids as a young kid and had 10+ more years of his prime with more power he would have put up similar numbers.

[Raisor]

Well I don't think he'll have a .250 OBP, but if he did he wouldn't hit leadoff all year.

I agree he wouldn't be leading off, just saying if he did then off with their heads

[bucksfan2]

I agree with Doug on this one. Nobody is saying Billy isn't the fastest guy in the league. But the actual difference between him and several other guys is miniscule. Less than a 1/10 of a second...think about that for a minute or two.

There's a bunch more to stealing bases than just being fast. Thus far in the bigs, we've seen that he is fast. But we haven't seen good reads of the pitcher, solid secondary leads, excellent jumps...at least not regularly. Quite often it's a bang-bang play or even the ball beating him there by quite a bit. He's got a long way to go before he should be compared to Henderson, Raines, etc. The only time I put him in with that group is when I talk about the effect he has on the pitcher and defense when he's on base. The amount of distraction he is causing. That's on par with those all-time great thieves. But that's mostly just because of his reputation coming into the league...not MLB results.

He's currently 7 for 9 in SB's. It really should be 6 for 9 or even 5 for 9. With a halfway decent tag, he'd be toast on two of those for sure.

A 10th of a second is the difference between Olympic Gold Medal's and perhaps nothing. Sprinters, runners, swimmers, etc train their tails off for those minuscule tenth's. You know what a 10th of a second is, the difference between a good and bad tag. Its the difference between taking the ball out cleanly and having to spend a little extra time finding the seems of the baseball. Its the difference between a good break and an average break to cover 1st by the pitcher.

Take a look at a stolen base and all the components that go into catching Hamilton speeding. A pitcher is more likely to throw a fastball with Hamilton on base in order to save hundredths of a second. How much attention does he pay to make sure that he can shorten Hamilton's lead. Then you need a fast pitch, a quick catch and release by the catcher, a throw on line, and then a quick tag in order to have a chance to nab Hamilton. You know when tenths of a second matter, when the opposing team is worrying about hundredths.