Price On Chapman

[Falls City Beer]

You also compared the Reds BP to the Astros.

The Reds bullpen minus Chapman sucks. Hyperbole isn't evil. The Brewers' bullpen? I don't know. It'll be overtaxed and crappy without Chapman. The details don't much matter.

[PepperJack]

The Reds bullpen minus Chapman sucks. Hyperbole isn't evil. The Brewers' bullpen? I don't know. It'll be overtaxed and crappy without Chapman. The details don't much matter.

There's a broad difference between hyperbole and a flat lie however. The worst pitcher in the Reds bullpen is Ondrusek, and even he isn't as bad as I think he is half the time.

Hoover, LeCure, Marshall, are all legit. Simon, Parra, and even Broxton have been good while they have been in Cincinnati.

[757690]

One world championship and one pennant. Good, but he's no immortal. His successor has already lapped him in St. Louis.

World Championships are a lousy way to judge anyone, especially these days. Bobby Cox only got one.

Division titles really all a every GM can shoot for. The rest is too based on luck. Jocketty's successor is proof of that. Jocketty's the best in the game at building contending teams.

[Falls City Beer]

There's a broad difference between hyperbole and a flat lie however. The worst pitcher in the Reds bullpen is Ondrusek, and even he isn't as bad as I think he is half the time.

Hoover, LeCure, Marshall, are all legit. Simon, Parra, and even Broxton have been good while they have been in Cincinnati.

If you're counting on Broxton and Marshall, you're stretching my credulity. Without Chapman, it's probably Hoover closing, Lecure/Simon setting up, Parra the loogy, and a bunch of untesteds and ?s. Smells like 2004.

[M2]

Their situation calls for creativity that Walt has shown no tendency toward.

This would be the Walt Jocketty that dealt for Mark McGwire, then poached Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen, then remade his team on the fly prior to 2004 (still the finest offseason a GM has had in recent history). For the Reds he made the Rolen deal when everyone insisted he should be rebuilding, he pounced on Chapman out of nowhere, he pulled off a heist for Latos and he filled the team's CF hole last season with Choo (an idea exactly zero other teams had the creativity to try). In short, you're about as wrong on Jocketty as you could be.

If you're looking for a GM to find a creative answer to the Reds' current OF situation, then I'd say Walt would be up near the top of the list.

[Falls City Beer]

This would be the Walt Jocketty that dealt for Mark McGwire, then poached Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen, then remade his team on the fly prior to 2004 (still the finest offseason a GM has had in recent history). For the Reds he made the Rolen deal when everyone insisted he should be rebuilding, he pounced on Chapman out of nowhere, he pulled off a heist for Latos and he filled the team's CF hole last season with Choo (an idea exactly zero other teams had the creativity to try). In short, you're about as wrong on Jocketty as you could be.

If you're looking for a GM to find a creative answer to the Reds' current OF situation, then I'd say Walt would be up near the top of the list.

Going after time tested and obvious/expensive talent is the opposite of creativity. He cobbles together good deals; he's a persistent horse trader, no doubt. But creative? Not Jocketty.

[PepperJack]

If you're counting on Broxton and Marshall, you're stretching my credulity. Without Chapman, it's probably Hoover closing, Lecure/Simon setting up, Parra the loogy, and a bunch of untesteds and ?s. Smells like 2004.

Broxton, I can give a pass on, as he rehabs. But Marshall finished the season healthy, and I'm not one to constantly expect injury. They are freak things for the most part.

[Falls City Beer]

Broxton, I can give a pass on, as he rehabs. But Marshall finished the season healthy, and I'm not one to constantly expect injury. They are freak things for the most part.

Marshall looked terrible at the end of last season, has a ton of miles on his arm, and has a bum shoulder. I'm no optimist, but you'd have to be Pretty Mary Sunshine to be sanguine about his future.

[757690]

Marshall looked terrible at the end of last season, has a ton of miles on his arm, and has a bum shoulder. I'm no optimist, but you'd have to be Pretty Mary Sunshine to be sanguine about his future.

Since when is 600 innings a ton of miles?

Granted he didn't look great when he came back, but while there's no reason to be overly optimistic, there's no reason to be overly pessimistic either. His injury has been one that players have historically bounced back well from.

But then again, we are talking about the FCB outlook, where the glass is neither half full nor half empty, but filled with cyanide.

[westofyou]

The Reds bullpen minus Chapman sucks. Hyperbole isn't evil. The Brewers' bullpen? I don't know. It'll be overtaxed and crappy without Chapman. The details don't much matter.

No, you said the Reds BP was as bad as the astros, I'm calling BS on that, I could care less how you deflect that garbage statement

[Falls City Beer]

Since when is 600 innings a ton of miles?

Granted he didn't look great when he came back, but while there's no reason to be overly optimistic, there's no reason to be overly pessimistic either. His injury has been one that players have historically bounced back well from.

But then again, we are talking about the FCB outlook, where the glass is neither half full nor half empty, but filled with cyanide.

He's a reliever. They don't last. The Reds are paying him for his 2010 performance.

[757690]

He's a reliever. They don't last. The Reds are paying him for his 2010 performance.

They don't last because they usually aren't very good, and the league eventually figures that out.

The good ones last. Marshall is a good one.

[M2]

Going after time tested and obvious/expensive talent is the opposite of creativity. He cobbles together good deals; he's a persistent horse trader, no doubt. But creative? Not Jocketty.

IIRC, you were alongside me in marveling at what he did to put together the 2004 Cardinals, which was creative genius at its finest. The deals he made to land McGwire, Edmonds and Rolen were inspired. A GM who lacks creativity couldn't have made a single one of those deals.

There was nothing obvious about Rolen (supposedly the opposite of what a rebuilding team needed), Chapman (supposedly too expensive), Latos (supposedly too much of a reach) and Choo (again, there were 29 other teams that lacked the stones to play him in CF). Leake straight to the majors? Keeping Joey Votto when most of the world believed he was a goner? You can lob all the empty criticism you want Walt's way, but he's got a record and he's been consistently creative. He's pulled a lot of rabbits out of his hat.

[BluegrassRedleg]

The Reds' bullpen minus Chapman is the Astros' bullpen.

If true, even more reason to start him. You'll never get to him enough to justify having him sit around in the pen all the time.