If the Reds come to the conclusion they will not be able to sign Votto past his current contract, they should trade him.
Let me be clear (apologies to Pres. Obama), I would love to see Joey Votto play 1B for the Reds for a long, long time. But I cannot see trading Alonso, only to lose Votto a couple years later. With that in mind, would you trade Joey Votto for Nats 3B Ryan Zimmerman if you knew Joey was gone after 2013?
As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
No, becuase his contract ends the same time as Votto's.
Would you do it if you could lock Zimmerman up for a 5 year extention?Originally Posted by PuffyPig
As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
Yes, if I was happy with the cost.
7 years of Zimmerman > 2 years of Votto.
Plus Zimmerman plays a position that is harder to fill, Votto plays a position that (along with LF) can generally be filled cheaply with reasonable production).
I think it would be dependent on both teams making long term deals with each player. I don't see Votto happy as a Nat.
I don't think the Nats would make the deal. Zimmerman's really the face of the franchise.
I'd do it, with reservations. Zimmerman has a history of being fragile, but his positional importance (and the emergence/presence of Alonso) makes the deal a win. He'd also be an ideal cleanup hitter to put between Bruce and Alonso in a suddenly balanced lineup:
Phillips 2B
Sappelt/ Heisey LF
Alonso 1B
Zimmerman 3B
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF
Mesoraco/ Hanigan C
Cozart SS
That's a cheap, productive lineup that's also nicely balanced, with power and obp throughout. The bench, too, would be outstanding, with Rolen, Frazier, Heisey, Cairo, and Hanigan providing punch (though there's no southpaw off the pine to PH).
They'd just need to find a TOR pitcher or two and a bullpen overhaul to be right there with Philadelphia and Atlanta. (A FA signing of CJ Wilson and a deal-- Soto, Grandal, and Bailey?-- for Shields would be nice to see. Then, the failed starters can either be dealt or moved to the pen in lieu of other, ineffective guys.)
I hear a lot of talk of trading Alonso, but no talk of trading Votto. Moving Yonder would be a huge mistake in the long term.
As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
As compared to trading MVP Votto?
Really?
How about a rephrase of the question with anyone free to chime in.
If Ryan Zimmerman were on the team today instead of Joey Votto and if the lineup was constructed optimally, would the Reds be a better team?
I don't know, I know 3b has been absolutely wretched this year but any production from Votto to Alonso is going to be pretty step. If healthy for an entire year (with Zimmerman) we are probably a better team overall. But I don't know enough about Zimmerman's injuries to really make me feel comfortable enough to trade Votto who outside of a month in 09 has been very dependable.
Zimmerman is due 12 and 14 million over the next two years compared to 9.5 mil next year and 17 mil the following year for Votto. So the cash is basically a wash, would Zimmerman be willing to negotiate an extension afterwards? If he is and he's not outrageous it is certainly worth talking about. But the Nats have been looking like they want to become a bigger spender with the new ownership in place (Dunn, Werth) they might be willing to pony up the money to keep Votto but if thats the case why trade Zimmerman?
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change, the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
If they could afford either guy they would probably keep Zimmerman since hes the face of the franchise.
No.
Why? We're making a couple of big assumptions here.
1. The Reds can't afford or sign Votto. I think both of those are not true. There should always be budget available for the franchise players. What the Reds can't afford is to get nickeled and dimed to death with $2 Million for Renteria, $2 Million for Gomes, $2.5 Million for Nick Masset next year, going to arb with Homer Bailey or Drew Stubbs. Those interchangebale part types are the ones to deal before they get too expensive. Votto at $25 Million is a bargain compared to Renteria at $2 Million. The Reds have lots of kids who can break in as role players on the cheap. There is a ton of money to be saved on the edges of the roster. Why skimp where it really counts?
2. Alonso is a lock to provide an .850+ OPS. Jay Bruce has an OPS of .843 at the present moment, That is the 40th best OPS in all of the major leagues. Victor Martiniez at .822 is the 50th best, I think its a huge assumption that Alonso will step into the line-up and be among the top 50 or so bats in the big leagues. He might very well, but its a big gamble for a contending team to make. Its more of a rebuilding move. He may end up like Justin Smoak (.704 OPS), Brandon Belt (.754), Eric Hosmer (.751), Domonic Brown (.728) or even the relatively successful Mark Trumbo (.775). All of whom are huge drops from the poduction that Votto provides.
3. The Reds can get a similar player at another position for Votto. If I had one of the top 20 position players in baseball, I probably wouldn't be willing to deal him for 2 years of Joey Votto and the right to pay him $30 Million over those two years. Chances are I'd already have a productive 1B, my own version of Yonder Alonso coming up or would have even less ability to afford it than the Reds. If the Reds could find a match, chances are the player received would have the same problem that the Reds face with Votto. Most likely, Votto would fetch a package of mediocre veterans. Those types are nice to pick up on the cheap to fill holes but in general don't have much over the talent coming up in the system. If your dealing the best players on the team for them for monetary reasons, it basically makes you the Pirates. The most value would likely come from a package of high ceiling kids, but that is a move for a team ready to rebuild and I, for one, don't want the rebuild to start before the contending window ever gets off the ground.
This team isn't that far off. They should do this year what the should have done last winter amd that is deal some kids with no place to play (Alonso, Grandal, etc) and get the missing pieces.
Last edited by mth123; 08-27-2011 at 03:07 PM.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
1. Considering any Votto trade to Washington seems incomplete without taking into account the Nats already have Morse with a .915 OPS.
2. I'm certainly hoping we don't need to trade Votto because we can sign him, but I also hope we don't trade Alonso because I don't think we'll get adequate value for him. Seems to me still by far the most hopeful outcome is to get them into the lineup at the same time.
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