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Thread: Reds eligible for 2013 Competitive Balance Lottery picks.

  1. #16
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Reds eligible for 2013 Competitive Balance Lottery picks.

    So... wouldn't this basically be the same teams every year no matter what?
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  3. #17
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Competitive Balance Lottery to shake up Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I've lived in both cities, and I can tell you that St. Louis is a significantly bigger city and baseball market than Cincinnati.
    It's a significantly bigger city than Cincinnati, yes, but the MSA is still around 21st in MLB after accounting for two-team markets.

    As for the fan base outside of the cities, much of the Midwest was Cardinal country for most of the past century. Adding Atlanta, the Texas teams, the Twins cut into that a bit, but go to any small town in the midwest, southwest, and even the south, and you'll find plenty of Cardinal fans.
    True enough, but why is that? They don't have more people in their surrounding area than other teams typically do in theirs. All those people who could be following the Royals or the Cubs or White Sox or Rangers or Reds or Braves, are following the Cardinals instead. They must be doing something right.

    Truth is, they're doing a better job than most any other team of turning potential fans and potential revenue into actual fans and actual revenue. In the big picture, that is probably better rewarded than punished.
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  4. #18
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reds eligible for 2013 Competitive Balance Lottery picks.

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    So... wouldn't this basically be the same teams every year no matter what?
    The bottom ten markets should remain pretty static. The bottom ten revenue teams could fluctuate more. Since it's an "or" qualifier, the number of teams in the lottery can differ from year to year.
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  5. #19
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    Re: Competitive Balance Lottery to shake up Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    It's a significantly bigger city than Cincinnati, yes, but the MSA is still around 21st in MLB after accounting for two-team markets.



    True enough, but why is that? They don't have more people in their surrounding area than other teams typically do in theirs. All those people who could be following the Royals or the Cubs or White Sox or Rangers or Reds or Braves, are following the Cardinals instead. They must be doing something right.

    Truth is, they're doing a better job than most any other team of turning potential fans and potential revenue into actual fans and actual revenue. In the big picture, that is probably better rewarded than punished.
    The reason is simple. There was no MLB baseball west of Saint Louis for decades, and then only the hapless Kansas City A's for around a decade. Combine that with KMOX, which, because of the flatlands of the midwest, can be heard for hundreds of miles, from 1900-1966, you had nearly every southern baseball fan, midwestern baseball fan, southwestern baseball fan, and northwestern baseball fan grow up Cardinal fans.

    Now some did peel off and become Twin fans, Braves fans, Royal fans, Astros fans, etc, as baseball expanded, but still, even in those areas, you have families that are Cardinal fans.

    The Cardinals right now are not doing anything better to grow their market, they are just capitalizing on their history and logistics.

    I will grant you that back then, Branch Rickey built a model organization, which is a big reason why the Cardinal market is so big, but the current Cardinal organization isn't doing anything much better or smarter than other organizations to grow their market.

    Let's put it this way. Switch Cast and the current Cardinal ownership, and St. Louis and Cincinnati would be in the exact same situations in terms of their market.
    Last edited by 757690; 12-01-2011 at 03:28 PM.
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  6. #20
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    Re: Reds eligible for 2013 Competitive Balance Lottery picks.

    Why not have two leagues - a small market league and a big market league?

    National (small market) League

    EAST
    Atlanta
    Florida
    Tampa
    Toronto
    Baltimore

    CENTRAL
    Cincinnati
    Milwaukee
    Pittsburgh
    Detroit
    Cleveland

    WEST
    Colorado
    San Diego
    Oakland
    Kansas City
    Minnesota

    American (big market) League

    EAST
    NY Yankees
    NY Mets
    Boston
    Philadelphia
    Washington

    CENTRAL
    Chi White Sox
    Chi Cubs
    St. Louis
    Houston
    Texas

    WEST
    Seattle
    LA Angels
    LA Dodgers
    San Francisco
    Arizona
    Last edited by Benihana; 12-01-2011 at 03:26 PM.
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  7. #21
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    Re: Reds eligible for 2013 Competitive Balance Lottery picks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    Why not have two leagues - a small market league and a big market league?

    National (small market) League

    EAST
    Tampa
    Toronto
    Baltimore
    Florida
    Atlanta

    CENTRAL
    Cincinnati
    Milwaukee
    Pittsburgh
    Detroit
    Cleveland


    WEST
    Oakland
    Kansas City
    Colorado
    San Diego
    Minnesota

    American (big market) League

    EAST
    NY Yankees
    NY Mets
    Boston
    Philadelphia
    Washington

    CENTRAL
    St. Louis
    Chi Cubs
    Chi White Sox
    Houston
    Texas

    WEST
    San Francisco
    LA Dodgers
    LA Angels
    Arizona
    Seattle
    I believe that has actually been discussed by MLB. I kinda like it, although I haven't really thought it through.

    Funny thing, there are almost as many contending teams in the small market league right now, as in the big market league.
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  8. #22
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Competitive Balance Lottery to shake up Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I've lived in both cities, and I can tell you that St. Louis is a significantly bigger city and baseball market than Cincinnati.

    First off, St. Louis is at least a third bigger in population of the immediate metro area. It also is a much wealthier city. St. Louis is the home to 8 world headquarters, including Anheuser-Busch, McDonald Douglass, Monsanto, and Emerson Electric. Cincinnati has P&G.

    As for the fan base outside of the cities, much of the Midwest was Cardinal country for most of the past century. Adding Atlanta, the Texas teams, the Twins cut into that a bit, but go to any small town in the midwest, southwest, and even the south, and you'll find plenty of Cardinal fans.

    Like I said, Saint Louis is around the fifth largest baseball market in baseball and always has been. It has little to do with how smart they are run, but mostly to do with logistics.

    Regardless, how can any team justify getting MLB welfare when it has offered a 9 year $200M contract, when it already has another player signed to 7 year $120M contract?

    Beyond absurd.
    Just a couple of clarifications on some of your comparison's to Cincinnati. I had to bounce around to gather some of this info, but here goes. According to the 2010 Census, the St. Louis MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) ranks 18th in the county with 2.81M people. Cincinnati's MSA ranks 27th with 2.13M people, or about 680,000 less, so it's not quite a third larger - but that's a quibble. Essentially your statement is correct there.

    As for corporate presence, since presently (at least until the end of next year when Chiquita moves), Cincinnati has nine Fortunate 500 companies compared to St. Louis's eight. Of course, we'll be tied after next year. The Fortune 500 companies here are, besides P&G, Kroger, Macys, Ashland, Fifth Third, Omnicare, AK Steel, Western & Southern Financial, Cincinnati Financial and Chiquita. St. Louis does beat us with Fortune 1000 companies with 21 compared to our 15.

    As for income, we're roughly the same with the Cincinnati MSA having $51,832 and St. Louis MSA with $51,691.

    The point is that, as many have said, the markets are essentially equivalent. The Cardinals have done a terrific job of packing their ballpark for many years now and their fans, frankly, put us to shame for their enthusiasm. The volume at Cardinals game is loud and constant and, at times, spontaneous. We don't know spontaneous unless the scoreboard tells us to do it, sadly.

    I think WOY did a decent overview of the differences facing the two cities baseball wise some time ago. St. Louis has few things competing for fans than the Reds do. Plus they retained much of their old market after expansion (which basically was much of the south and way far west of the city). Even with the A's and then the Royals in Kansas City's, many folks in western Missouri and even in Kansas still considered themselves Cards fans. And we all know the wretched turning away of our larger market by Marge Schott during her reign. We're still trying to recover from that. Sadly, it occurred right as the Indians were on their ascendancy and we lost large parts of Ohio to them because of it.

    Based on the definition, St. Louis is in that group.
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  9. #23
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    Re: Reds eligible for 2013 Competitive Balance Lottery picks.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I believe that has actually been discussed by MLB. I kinda like it, although I haven't really thought it through.

    Funny thing, there are almost as many contending teams in the small market league right now, as in the big market league.
    Yep, plus selfishly, I feel like we SHOULD always be able to contend in a division with Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Detroit.

    The beauty of this system is it will really flush out the talent in the front offices, as the cities are competing like-to-like.

    And to your point about contending teams in both leagues, it wouldn't necessarily be a one-sided World Series every year.
    Last edited by Benihana; 12-01-2011 at 05:00 PM.
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  10. #24
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Competitive Balance Lottery to shake up Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Cincinnati has a potentially HUGE population base to draw from. In Marge's heydey, the Reds had one of the top 10 payrolls in all of baseball. No one ever said the Reds were a large market back then.
    Yeah, in her heyday the Oakland A's had the highest payroll in MLB...so what? Times have changed and it ain't ever goin' back

    St Louis is the 21st market in the US while Cincinnati is 33rd. I consider that a significant difference:

    http://mediainfosaltlakecity.blogspo...-rankings.html

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    Re: Competitive Balance Lottery to shake up Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    St Louis is the 21st market in the US while Cincinnati is 33rd. I consider that a significant difference:

    http://mediainfosaltlakecity.blogspo...-rankings.html
    Milwaukee is 35th according to that link.

  12. #26
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    Re: Reds eligible for 2013 Competitive Balance Lottery picks.

    Oh...Atlanta is 8th. Not exactly a small market team. On top of that...TBS made the whole country Braves fans.

  13. #27
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    Re: Competitive Balance Lottery to shake up Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyHo4Life View Post
    Milwaukee is 35th according to that link.
    Your point is?

  14. #28
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    Re: Competitive Balance Lottery to shake up Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Your point is?
    Simply that even though the Brewers are the smallest market team, they have a larger payroll than a lot of teams do. The Brewers have been able to put a winner on the field and the fans are responding by going to the games.

  15. #29
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Competitive Balance Lottery to shake up Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The Cardinals right now are not doing anything better to grow their market, they are just capitalizing on their history and logistics.
    which is otherwise known as running a smart and profitable business. Give them their due for that.

    The Reds' marketing and advertising is getting better, but they have years of neglect to overcome.
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  16. #30
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    Re: Reds eligible for 2013 Competitive Balance Lottery picks.

    I really don't like the idea of giving teams extra draft picks, even though it will benefit the Reds. I don't know, to me it cheapens the league, even if the Yankees have a bajillion dollars. I'd rather see a salary cap of $100M, maybe slightly more.


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