Votto Hitting verses walking

[Lewdog]

How did we get into a discussion about Phillips batting second?



Trust me, I know my history. Greg Maddox was one of the best ever because he had command that was better than just about anyone ever. He also benefited from a very large strikezone that he got that most other pitchers didn't.

Knowing the other players helps, but it isn't nearly as important as what you can do on the mound in terms of talent. Locate the baseball. Make it move or throw it hard.

You said Votto had Phillips hitting behind him which was an automatic out. I said that Choo had worse hitters behind him all year in the #2 hole. The numbers prove that.

You can only be good at locating the ball to hitters if you know where to locate it to them. Some like inside pitches, some have a hole on the inside of their swing, some like them low...that takes knowing your opponent.

[Wonderful Monds]

Misleading thread title. Expected to see a video of Joey freestyling or otherwise rapping. I'm out of here.

[dougdirt]

You said Votto had Phillips hitting behind him which was an automatic out. I said that Choo had worse hitters behind him all year in the #2 hole. The numbers prove that.

You can only be good at locating the ball to hitters if you know where to locate it to them. Some like inside pitches, some have a hole on the inside of their swing, some like them low...that takes knowing your opponent.

Choo had a worst hitter directly behind him, but he also had Votto behind him. Votto didn't have anyone close to as good as himself behind him.

As for the other stuff.... that matters, but your catcher knows that stuff too. Heck, some pitchers don't even look into it and let their catcher worry about all of that stuff.

[Falcon7]

Nothing more exciting than Votto being up in the bottom of the 9th with 2 on, 2 outs and the Reds down 2. He works the count by taking a couple of high and outside pitches for balls and then 2 middle in pitches for strikes, as he is looking for something to slap to left field. The next pitch is a bit low, full count.
Votto chokes up a little bit more, the next pitch is on the outside corner and he fouls it off.
The next pitch is a waste high fastball on the inside corner borderline ...and Joey takes it for.......ball 4! Awesome he WALKED!
Now if the next 3 batters all walk, like Joey... Reds Win... Reds Win...

[PTjvs]

If this is true, then Votto has the highest OBP % so he should be hitting first right? You want the guy that gets on base most to get the most at bats so he can get on base the most? Then to set the line up each night, the coaches should just go down the line based on OBP. I can't say that I have ever seen a lineup set that way. Ever.

You are correct in saying most managers make lineups that are very far from optimal.

There are other factors that matter, to a degree, but far and away the most important factor in optimal lineup construction is that the players who get on base at the highest clip are towards the top of the order.

jvs

[Old school 1983]

I could not care one bit what the batting average of any player is. I care about how often they get on base, not how often they get a hit. Hits are important, but they only tell you part of the story.

I could. At least as far as splits are concerned. Choo more or less is a two outcome player versus left handed pitching. out or walk. Very little chance of hits or power. The batting average tells us the hits part of that. Yes his OBP is like 350 but it's inflated by an absurd amount of hbp. Switch to a lefty and the best you can hope for in most situations is a walk and his BA tells us this. Is it as an important a stat as it was deemed to be years ago? No. But if used in context it can be helpful. Hits have a different value than walks. Average can tell us the percentage of time a player gets on that allows for more runner advancement than a walk. It's not like it is useless, it's just often misused.

[Old school 1983]

How did we get into a discussion about Phillips batting second?



Trust me, I know my history. Greg Maddox was one of the best ever because he had command that was better than just about anyone ever. He also benefited from a very large strikezone that he got that most other pitchers didn't.

Knowing the other players helps, but it isn't nearly as important as what you can do on the mound in terms of talent. Locate the baseball. Make it move or throw it hard.

Good. It wasn't just me that thought Maddox and the braves in the 90s in general had a way larger strikezone than other staffs.

[PTjvs]

Nothing more exciting than Votto being up in the bottom of the 9th with 2 on, 2 outs and the Reds down 2. He works the count by taking a couple of high and outside pitches for balls and then 2 middle in pitches for strikes, as he is looking for something to slap to left field. The next pitch is a bit low, full count.
Votto chokes up a little bit more, the next pitch is on the outside corner and he fouls it off.
The next pitch is a waste high fastball on the inside corner borderline ...and Joey takes it for.......ball 4! Awesome he WALKED!
Now if the next 3 batters all walk, like Joey... Reds Win... Reds Win...

I find it amazing that some Reds fans have one of the 5-10 best hitters in baseball on their team, yet complain because they would prefer a DIFFERENT type of perennial all star with an MVP.

I find it amazing that some Reds fans will take the word of worse hitters than Joey that he isn't "doing it right" because they "played the game", ignoring that Joey has also "played the game" at a higher level than almost all of the talking heads.

A team of 8 Vottos would lead the league in runs by a historic margin. Some reds fans would still complain The Cincinnati Vottos didn't do it the "right way" though, I guess.

jvs

[CoachBombay]

I love when people at the game talk **** about how votto sucks this season, and then on the jumbo tron they show where he ranks in the league in all offensive categories...it gets pointed out to them, they shut up the rest of the game.

If anyone was at the game last night section 118, you might have seen this. It was great

[Lewdog]

I love when people at the game talk **** about how votto sucks this season, and then on the jumbo tron they show where he ranks in the league in all offensive categories...it gets pointed out to them, they shut up the rest of the game.

If anyone was at the game last night section 118, you might have seen this. It was great

I'm not saying anything about Votto sucks. I'm saying he isn't a #3 hitter. To be honest, with his skill set as a good OBP guy, average power, and lack of speed, I have no idea where he would be optimal. As it stands right now, I'd rather have him hit #2 than #3, but there are two problems with that. First it would create a scenario with back to back lefties, which Dusty Baker hates and is part of the reason Bruce hits #5 and not clean up behind Votto. Then secondly it would require a guy to hit #3 that is good enough with the bat not to hit into double plays all the time because of Votto's lack of speed, and the Reds don't really have a guy like that.

[Ohayou]

What the heck does war have to do with anything in baseball?

Coming from you, this made me laugh out loud.

[TitosLoveChild]

Do you know that Choo's career AVG vs L (.242) is higher than Bruce's(.235)?

Choo has struggled the last two years but the year before that he averaged better against left handed pitching... while having his worst year in mlb.

@oldschool83 I think you are picking and choosing which stat to give relevance to and which are flukey. If the obp is flukey because of hbp then can we also say the low avg is flukey because of a low babip (.043 lower this year compared to his career numbers).

[Beer&Bourbon]

Choo has looked considerably better recently against LHP, but we all know that ideally he doesn't go out in those situations - esp if we can field someone like Hamilton. I stated elsewhere here that I wouldn't want Hamilton playing in the WC game, but if we face a LH starting pitcher, Hamilton might be a good option.

To the point of the thread, it gets frustrating seeing Votto walk all of the time, but keep in mind that he'll continue to do that for the rest of his career. Power hitting is not maintainable long term, but Votto's strategy is.

[Old school 1983]

Do you know that Choo's career AVG vs L (.242) is higher than Bruce's(.235)?

I was speaking of recent trends. This season. I think choo is a wonderful player, but like with anyone else let's know his limitations as well as his strengths.

[Old school 1983]

Choo has struggled the last two years but the year before that he averaged better against left handed pitching... while having his worst year in mlb.

@oldschool83 I think you are picking and choosing which stat to give relevance to and which are flukey. If the obp is flukey because of hbp then can we also say the low avg is flukey because of a low babip (.043 lower this year compared to his career numbers).

Or it can be weak contact too. Plus the eye test says choo doesn't see the ball all too well against lefties. Either way, choo is a far superior player against right handed pitching.

But back to votto. Yes it's frustrating to see him take marginal pitches, but you can't argue with the guys OBP. Let's get a guy that can create more hittable pitches in front of him (Hamilton) and a guy that can instantly make the other team pay for walking him. (Bruce) but preferably a right handed guy to have three solid bats in a row.