Reds Acquire Jonathan Broxton

[jojo]

As I've said in other posts, I think the hidden agenda here relates to the heavy use of Chapman.

Walt may be concerned that Dusty is using Chapman so often to close games.

Not that I blame Dusty or that Walt blames Dusty. I didn't think Marshall handled the closer spot very well, and I see nobody else on this team (pre-trade) who I would use to close.

Brox does have 23 saves this year. His peripherals aren't that great, but he is an experienced closer. I expect him to have several closing opportunities on days when Chapman should rest.

If I were a GM, I would always want a back up closer (from among my set up men). Coco could have used one, he was so heavily used in certain stretches over the last four seasons.

Danny Graves/Scott Williamson in 1999.

I think it comes down to a trust issue and a depth issue. A playoff track record proably helped too.

[Benihana]

Off the top of my head:
Arroyo
Cueto
Bailey
Chapman
Marshall
Arredondo
Ondrusek
Bray

have all pitched in the playoffs. I literally just named the entire staff other than Latos, Leake, Simon, and LeCure. Without looking up Marshall and Arredondo's number, I can say every Reds pitcher who pitched in the 2010 playoffs not named Volquez pitched well. Don't think expierence is an issue here.

Other than Arroyo, every one of those guys pitched in the playoffs...once.

Of course you have to start somewhere, but I'll take Broxton's 13 postseason appearances as real experience over anyone you named, save maybe Arroyo who arguably may not even pitch in the postseason (unless it's in long relief).

Don't forget Chapman took the loss in that super ugly Game 2. With relief pitchers especially there is such a thin margin for error, and we've seen that even with Chapman. If there is the slightest mental complication, things can get ugly fast. I'm not saying Broxton is a savior and guaranteed to be breakdown-free by any stretch, but it doesn't hurt to have a guy with his experience on board- especially when you're hardly selling the farm to do so.

Once again, I trust Walt here. He's put together a few teams that have done well in the postseason. And even Dusty, for all of his faults, understands a thing or two about team chemistry and leadership.

[reds44]

Other than Arroyo, every one of those guys pitched in the playoffs...once.

Of course you have to start somewhere, but I'll take Broxton's 13 postseason appearances as real experience over anyone you named, save maybe Arroyo who arguably may not even pitch in the postseason (unless it's in long relief).

Don't forget Chapman took the loss in that super ugly Game 2. With relief pitchers especially there is such a thin margin for error, and we've seen that even with Chapman. If there is the slightest mental complication, things can get ugly fast. I'm not saying Broxton is a savior and guaranteed to be breakdown-free by any stretch, but it doesn't hurt to have a guy with his experience on board- especially when you're hardly selling the farm to do so.

Once again, I trust Walt here. He's put together a few teams that have done well in the postseason. And even Dusty, for all of his faults, understands a thing or two about team chemistry and leadership.

Clearly it was Chapman's fault he didn't hit Utley, Utley was out at 2nd, and then Bruce lost the ball in lights.

I don't even dislike the trade, but this playoff thing is a huge reach.

[redsmetz]

As I've said in other posts, I think the hidden agenda here relates to the heavy use of Chapman.

Walt may be concerned that Dusty is using Chapman so often to close games.

Not that I blame Dusty or that Walt blames Dusty. I didn't think Marshall handled the closer spot very well, and I see nobody else on this team (pre-trade) who I would use to close.

Brox does have 23 saves this year. His peripherals aren't that great, but he is an experienced closer. I expect him to have several closing opportunities on days when Chapman should rest.

If I were a GM, I would always want a back up closer (from among my set up men). Coco could have used one, he was so heavily used in certain stretches over the last four seasons.

Danny Graves/Scott Williamson in 1999.

As you suggest, it may have been something both the front office and the coaching staff suggested as beneficial so as not to overuse Chapman this season. And I think you're right that, for this year, Marshall is being used in the best way for the club. And he's signed for the next 3 years, so he doesn't have to sweat missing out on saves this year to get the next contract. He may grow into it, particularly if Chapman does move to the rotation, but for this year, he's filling a valuable role. Not a sexy move, picking up Broxton, but one that can pay off.

[REDREAD]

So would JJ Hoover, who we already have. We made a lateral move in my opinion because the Reds don't trust young players and would rather have mediocre "name" guys. Sure, Broxton throws hard, but his fastball isn't the problem, it is that he doesn't have an out pitch. His slider used to be among the best in baseball, now it is average at best.

Ok, even with Hoover taking Bray's spot.. Broxton > Logan.

There's some value in having Hoover at AAA as injury inusrance as well.

IMO, it's a stretch that Broxton is the the least effective guy in the bullpen (including Hoover)..

It seems you are making the argument that the Reds should've just called up Hoover and stood pat at the trading deadline.. Is that the case, or were you excited about Joseph and sorry to see him go? As someone else said, one could make the case we overpaid (I don't agree, but could see the point)

I can't see the point that adding Broxton is a bad thing though.
I would be willing to bet money he outperforms Arrondo and Logan the rest of the year. Probably outperforms at least one of Simon/LeCure as well.
And I'm talking about stats that matter.. Let's say inherited runners allowed to score + runs given up. Stats like FIP are nice predictative tools, but I'm concerned about protecting leads and putting out fires.. actual performance the rest of the season that impacts the W-L record.

[jojo]

Not that I think you are wrong, heck, I suspect you might even be right, but if you are right here, doesn't it just further display the disconnect between the front office and the manager?

If you were the GM and you believed your reliever were being overused, wouldn't you step in and set up some rules.

To be fair, you could view this as a GM giving his Skipper the tools to more effectively manage the pen.

If that is the narrative (Chapman's workload), Jocketty did exactly what he should have-say these are the changes that need to be made and here's some tools to help you make them.

[Benihana]

Clearly it was Chapman's fault he didn't hit Utley, Utley was out at 2nd, and then Bruce lost the ball in lights.

I don't even dislike the trade, but this playoff thing is a huge reach.

Watch the defense the Reds played in game 2 and tell me they didn't choke.

The best defensive team in baseball that year commits 5(?) errors in game 2 and at least one more in game 3 which gave the Phillies a run. It was a choke job. Doesn't mean it'll happen a again, but it was a choke job.

And that's without even mentioning the lack of hitting.

Huh? Out of one side of your mouth you are arguing that the playoff thing is a huge reach, out of the other you are saying that the 2010 team obviously choked terribly?

[Vottomatic]

This just isn't correct.

Brutus' stats prove it is. Why you won't accept his factual statement makes no sense, other than you don't want to be wrong. I keep being told to use facts to back up my statements and then I see someone do it and basically be called a liar. Doesn't seem right.

Help me understand.

[M2]

I don't even dislike the trade, but this playoff thing is a huge reach.

I'd say it's a pressure thing more than a playoff thing. The Reds pitchers haven't been in a lot of playoffs races and haven't had the responsibility of closing out games. Getting a guy who has been in playoff races and has closed out plenty of games adds a type of pressure experience the Reds might need.

[traderumor]

Not that I think you are wrong, heck, I suspect you might even be right, but if you are right here, doesn't it just further display the disconnect between the front office and the manager?

If you were the GM and you believed your reliever were being overused, wouldn't you step in and set up some rules.

Or you provide him some help for the back end of the game. Speaking of disconnect, it doesn't seem to me like MLB managers are receptive to their GMs making rules involving managerial decisions.

[jojo]

I'd say it's a pressure thing more than a playoff thing. The Reds pitchers haven't been in a lot of playoffs races and haven't had the responsibility of closing out games. Getting a guy who has been in playoff races and has closed out plenty of games adds a type of pressure experience the Reds might need.

I don't necesarily agree with the importance of having "a closer's makeup" in order to be a high leverage arm but this much is certainly true-you don't know that a guy won't freak out and melt down when all of the marbles are on the table, until you do know he wont. Probably the playoffs isn't a time to ask a question that you may not want to know the answer to.....

[jojo]

Brutus' stats prove it is. Why you won't accept his factual statement makes no sense, other than you don't want to be wrong. I keep being told to use facts to back up my statements and then I see someone do it and basically be called a liar. Doesn't seem right.

Help me understand.

Please reread the argument-especially before suggesting the position suffers from an unobjective bias-as there have been several posts addressing this issue.

[M2]

I don't necesarily agree with the importance of having "a closer's makeup" in order to be a high leverage arm but this much is certainly true-you don't know if a guy won't freak out and melt down when all of the marbles are on the table, until you do know.

And I suspect that's what the Reds are thinking. It's not that there's some mystical closer zen Broxton possesses (though he does resemble Buddha), it's that he represents a bit of a known in pressure games for a team with a lot of unknowns (or at least insufficiently testeds).

[edabbs44]

So would JJ Hoover, who we already have. We made a lateral move in my opinion because the Reds don't trust young players and would rather have mediocre "name" guys. Sure, Broxton throws hard, but his fastball isn't the problem, it is that he doesn't have an out pitch. His slider used to be among the best in baseball, now it is average at best.

There is no evidence that they do not trust younger players. Complete fallacy.

[reds44]

Huh? Out of one side of your mouth you are arguing that the playoff thing is a huge reach, out of the other you are saying that the 2010 team obviously choked terribly?

Yep, they did choke, but that doesn't mean it was because of age. I think Rolen had 2 errors and Cabrera had an error and they were as expierenced as you can possibly be.