"No matter what the stat boys say, you put the ball in play." - Dusty

[_Sir_Charles_]

I will disagree with some of it. If everyone is striking out, which Dusty says they are, it doesn't make it any more or less difficult to win.

I also don't agree with disliking where the game is going.

You know why strikeouts are more prevalent than ever before? Part of it is people swinging for power. But part of it is that pitchers are just freaking better. Again, Homer Bailey and Mat Latos, starting pitchers, have sliders, SLIDERS that average velocity more than the 1985 MLB FASTBALL averaged. But, this is probably a side discussion.

The "not liking where the game is going" part, I took that to be about people not being embarrassed about K'ing anymore.

[dougdirt]

The "not liking where the game is going" part, I took that to be about people not being embarrassed about K'ing anymore.

Why should they be embarrased? Send the pitchers from today back to the 70's. Guys would be striking out 100+ times too. As someone who played the game for as long as he did, Dusty really should understand just how much better pitchers are today than ever before.

Again, the Reds have two starters with breaking balls that they throw faster than the average fastball in the game 30 years ago. Guys are striking out more today? Of course they are. Look at how good the pitching is.

[Kc61]

Dusty's point is not well stated IMO but is pretty clear and absolutely correct.

He's commenting on the notion that strikeouts don't matter. Some folks these days repeatedly say that strikeouts are just outs and aren't bad.

Dusty is saying that if you strike out, you don't make contact which is bad. Contact is better than non-contact.

I've made the point often. The impact of a K is the same as any out. But the impact of failing to make contact is usually to eliminate the possibility of a successful at bat.

[TSJ55]

Why should they be embarrased?

Because they got beat in the AB.

Hitters understand baseball is hard. They understand they can't get a hit every time up. They understand baseball is a game of failure. It doesn't (and shouldn't) keep them from getting upset when they lose a battle.

[dougdirt]

Because they got beat in the AB.

Hitters understand baseball is hard. They understand they can't get a hit every time up. They understand baseball is a game of failure. It doesn't (and shouldn't) keep them from getting upset when they lose a battle.

If you make most outs, you got beat in the AB though.

[TSJ55]

If you make most outs, you got beat in the AB though.

I agree. Baseball is a game a failure.

[Patrick Bateman]

1. In the quote Baker does kinda attack the stat backers, and from reading Dusty's words, I don't think he really understands the argument for why strikeouts are ok.

2. As a result of this, his advocacy for "be aggressive in the zone" is often misinterpreted because of the way he communicates it (such as in this quote, I don't think he said what it thinks he means.

3. As a player Baker walked about 50-60 times a season and struck out 70-80 times a season. This isn't a guy that was completely averse to drawing walks and swinging at strikes, it's consistent with a guy that is being aggressive in the zone and taking the ones he can't it.

For the millionth time, no, Dusty Baker is not a stat king, and no he doesn't properly appreciate the stats that he commonly tosses out. But he is a guy that depsite his old school background and propensity to bunt and do other annoying things, he very well understands the duties of a hitter, and it's not really fair to harp on every two line quote that he spouts off because he doesn't communicate his beliefs particularly well. The Reds are generally getting a sufficient alotment of runs and walks from their offensive talent, I don't think the Reds offense is being severly hindered by a few off-quotes he makes to the media. As usual, these threads begin and end with the same annoying and mostly uniformed discussion.

[RollyInRaleigh]

If you make most outs, you got beat in the AB though.

Although An Out Is An Out, As A Hitter, I'll Always Take A Hard Line Drive At Somebody Over A Strikeout.

[dougdirt]

Although An Out Is An Out, As A Hitter, I'll Always Take A Hard Line Drive At Somebody Over A Strikeout.

Certainly.

[Kc61]

An out is an out. But contact is better than no contact.

[dougdirt]

An out is an out. But contact is better than no contact.

Not if you trade two outs for one out because you ground into a double play, or bunt into a pop up double play or something of that ilk.

[Brutus]

Why should Dusty be fired for being right?

Strikeouts might be just another out, but unlike other outs, you can't score or have an opportunity to score if you don't make contact. It's always been a little bit hypocritical to praise pitchers who can avoid bats but not criticize hitters for missing pitches.

[BCubb2003]

Not if you trade two outs for one out because you ground into a double play, or bunt into a pop up double play or something of that ilk.

Is it possible to use BABIP to see whether the downside of a double play is greater than the downside of not making contact for a given player?

[dougdirt]

Why should Dusty be fired for being right?

Strikeouts might be just another out, but unlike other outs, you can't score or have an opportunity to score if you don't make contact. It's always been a little bit hypocritical to praise pitchers who can avoid bats but not criticize hitters for missing pitches.

I have seen plenty of run scoring opportunities begin because a player walked. I have also seen several walks be good for RBI.

[Brutus]

I have seen plenty of run scoring opportunities begin because a player walked. I have also seen several walks be good for RBI.

You're not walking when you strike out.