Bengals v. Squealers err... Stealers... err... Steelers

[WMR]

(And yes, Marvin inherited the majority of this franchise's current "best players." And, as others have said, drafting Carson was a no-brainer.)

I'm not one who hates everything that Marvin has done.

He DID do an admirable job of dragging this franchise out of the dark ages, although I also feel that a BUNCH of credit must go to Mike Brown for finally running the team like the billion dollar franchise that it is and not some Mom & Pop Store. That being said, however, it is becoming more and more apparent to myself--and others--that Marvin may have taken this team as far as he can. No shame in that. Look at Tony Dungy at Tampa Bay.

Marvin makes usually at least ONE tactical error per game... and you don't gotta be Vince Lombardi to recognize his gaffes. Gaffes that should not be acceptable, IMO, from a head coach in the National Football League.

[traderumor]

Of course, that is what you were talking about. LeBeau suffered through a 2-14 season that netted Palmer, so his tenure wasn't completely unprofitable. But considering the Bengals have been in position to make the playoffs each of his years as coach, say what you want about two chokes that kept them out in '04 and '06, but they were in position. No coach other than PB and Wicky Wacky have had the team this consistent. So just keep on running the guy out of town, I'm sure Mikey will give you someone more to your liking, just like he has in the past.

BTW, every professional has weaknesses and crossroads in their careers. Most just aren't doing it on sidelines with thousands of pundits ready to deadpan every wrong move, and give no credit for the good things.

[WMR]

Would you rather have Marty Schottenheimer as a head coach or Marvin Lewis?

The franchise is stagnating.

I'm happy for what has been done in the past, but it doesn't mean that we, the fans who put our hard-earned dollars into supporting this team, shouldn't expect forward momentum to continue.

[traderumor]

(And yes, Marvin inherited the majority of this franchise's current "best players." And, as others have said, drafting Carson was a no-brainer.)

I'm not one who hates everything that Marvin has done.

He DID do an admirable job of dragging this franchise out of the dark ages, although I also feel that a BUNCH of credit must go to Mike Brown for finally running the team like the billion dollar franchise that it is and not some Mom & Pop Store. That being said, however, it is becoming more and more apparent to myself--and others--that Marvin may have taken this team as far as he can. No shame in that. Look at Tony Dungy at Tampa Bay.

Marvin makes usually at least ONE tactical error per game... and you don't gotta be Vince Lombardi to recognize his gaffes. Gaffes that should not be acceptable, IMO, from a head coach in the National Football League.

And what was Tony Dungy truly capable of? I made this point in other Bengals threads--the Bengals fire Marvin, another organization will very possibly reap the fruits of his OJT. Sort of like the Browns and Bellechick, the Bucs and Dungy. Why shouldn't the Bengals reap the benefits of someone overcoming a learning curve? There's that short-term vs. long-term outlook rearing its ugly head again.

And honestly, do you really believe that a reasonable standard for an NFL coach is zero "technical" gaffes every game? Again, hundreds of decisions to make in any given game...maybe if we were talking about brain surgery...more decisions in a game than most of us make on our jobs in a month.

[WMR]

I think your argument is valid, TR. But I think that the other side of the coin concerning this situation is just as legitimate, and my feelings towards Marvin and what the next step the Bengals franchise should take are unchanged.

The window for success in the NFL is such a fleeting thing... I've seen enough egregious mistakes from Marvin the past few seasons to decide, in my mind at least, that the momentum Marvin brought to this franchise, while invaluable, has ceased to make him irreplaceable.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I made this point in other Bengals threads--the Bengals fire Marvin, another organization will very possibly reap the fruits of his OJT. Why shouldn't the Bengals reap the benefits of someone overcoming a learning curve? There's that short-term vs. long-term outlook rearing its ugly head again.

And I guess the same could be said for Dave Miley, Jerry Narron or Pete Mackanin as MLB managers. I think Marvin has had more learning curve time as an NFL head coach than any of these three were given as managers. As in most pro sports it tends be a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately job.

Marvin has been there since what, 2003? Have we seen an "average" defense in 5 years? How long does a defensive guru get to overcome the "learning curve" of putting together an at least average defense? I don't like to blame a coach for injuries, but as far as I remember Pollack is the only one to be lost. Thurman? Perhaps Marvin was fooled by the character issue. I can believe it b/c he seems to get fooled a lot by this. Defensive line and backfield flat out stink. I doubt a healthy Pollack changes that. Marvin is supposed to know defense. He has long passed the learning curve of knowing NFL defenses.

I am sure a lot of good defensive players can be named that could have been drafted by the Bengals while Marvin had the chance. The Bengals get the likes of Thurman, Joseph, Rucker and Hall. Perhaps Joseph and Hall can be good, but hardly anyone can cover an NFL wideout forever. And without a pass rush they are asked to do this. And the Bengals decide to put the franchise tag on their their supposed pash rush specialist... Justin Smith. Ugh! Another bad defensive (and $$$) move IMO.

[traderumor]

And I guess the same could be said for Dave Miley, Jerry Narron or Pete Mackanin as MLB managers. I think Marvin has had more learning curve time as an NFL head coach than any of these three were given as managers. As in most pro sports it tends be a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately job.

Marvin has been there since what, 2003? Have we seen an "average" defense in 5 years? How long does a defensive guru get to overcome the "learning curve" of putting together an at least average defense? I don't like to blame a coach for injuries, but as far as I remember Pollack is the only one to be lost. Thurman? Perhaps Marvin was fooled by the character issue. I can believe it b/c he seems to get fooled a lot by this. Defensive line and backfield flat out stink. I doubt a healthy Pollack changes that. Marvin is supposed to know defense. He has long passed the learning curve of knowing NFL defenses.

I am sure a lot of good defensive players can be named that could have been drafted by the Bengals while Marvin had the chance. The Bengals get the likes of Thurman, Joseph, Rucker and Hall. Perhaps Joseph and Hall can be good, but hardly anyone can cover an NFL wideout forever. And without a pass rush they are asked to do this. And the Bengals decide to put the franchise tag on their their supposed pash rush specialist... Justin Smith. Ugh! Another bad defensive (and $$$) move IMO.

And none of those had even a modest amount of success, without even mentioning the total incomparability of a major league manager to an NFL head coach.

As for the assistant on one side of the ball or the other becoming a head coach and his team not getting it on that side of the ball, again there are examples and apparently it is more complex than "if successful assistant on one side of the ball becomes head coach, his team should be strong on that side of the ball" since there are current examples where the exact thing has happened to Billick and Dungy that is happening to Marvin, just to give two obvious examples.

I would leave it at as an overall blind spot in talent evaluation on either side of the ball. Marvin probably needs a front office football guy to take that load off and either take over the D coordinating himself or get a new assistant. But I think it is simplistic to assume that if you hire a defensive assistant that your team will necessarily have strong defenses.

[macro]

But considering the Bengals have been in position to make the playoffs each of his years as coach, say what you want about two chokes that kept them out in '04 and '06, but they were in position.

Yes, but how many of the 32 teams are mathematically alive heading into the last weekend of the season? Twelve actually make it every year, and I'd dare say that over half of the teams in the league usually have a shot. So I'm not all that impressed over their near misses.

Fact is, he's managed one winning season in five tries (counting this year). If we're satisfied with that, our standards are way too low. Replace Carson Palmer with Jon Kitna or Jeff Blake and Lewis' records are no better (or at least not much better) than Shula's, Coslett's, or Lebeau's.

[WMR]

Would you rather have Marty Schottenheimer as a head coach or Marvin Lewis?

tr, who would you choose if given the chance to pick between these two?

Would anyone here choose Marvin?

[traderumor]

Yes, but how many of the 32 teams are mathematically alive heading into the last weekend of the season? Twelve actually make it every year, and I'd dare say that over half of the teams in the league usually have a shot. So I'm not all that impressed over their near misses.

Fact is, he's managed one winning season in five tries (counting this year). If we're satisfied with that, our standards are way too low. Replace Carson Palmer with Jon Kitna or Jeff Blake and Lewis' records are no better (or at least not much better) than Shula's, Coslett's, or Lebeau's.

Ok, replace Tom Brady with any of those average NFL QBs and I imagine New England has a different history, sort of like when Drew Bledsoe was leading the charge. If there is one thing that puts a feather in Marvin's hat, it is his predraft recruiting and subsequent year on the sideline handling of Carson. And the standards are not too low, the program was simply that messed up. While folks talk about how easy it is to turn things around in the NFL, there sure are a lot of teams struggling to right long histories of losing, like in St. Louis/Arizona, Detroit, Houston, and continued down cycles to irrelevance in Oakland, Tennessee, Buffalo and Cleveland. Yet it's all so easy and our expectations are just too low.

[traderumor]

tr, who would you choose if given the chance to pick between these two?

Would anyone here choose Marvin?

Since when did Schottenheimer become such a genius. Because of last season at San Diego? Do you not remember the Eli Manning situation?

BTW, as much as I despise such questions, Schottenheimer is not one of my favorites, so Marvin would win by default. What's next, asking me who I'd take out between Becky and Susie?

[macro]

Ok, replace Tom Brady with any of those average NFL QBs and I imagine New England has a different history, sort of like when Drew Bledsoe was leading the charge. If there is one thing that puts a feather in Marvin's hat, it is his predraft recruiting and subsequent year on the sideline handling of Carson. And the standards are not too low, the program was simply that messed up. While folks talk about how easy it is to turn things around in the NFL, there sure are a lot of teams struggling to right long histories of losing, like in St. Louis/Arizona, Detroit, Houston, and continued down cycles to irrelevance in Oakland, Tennessee, Buffalo and Cleveland. Yet it's all so easy and our expectations are just too low.

I'll give you the point about the QB, but I'll stick by my point about the lack of progress for the franchise. They'll enter their sixth season under Lewis next year with only one winning season under their belts. He's had long enough, and they seem to be regressing.

If we are to use those seven franchises as examples of how things can be, then we can use the other 24 franchises as examples of how things could be better. Again, we should expect more, and most NFL cities do.

[traderumor]

I'll give you the point about the QB, but I'll stick by my point about the lack of progress for the franchise. They'll enter their sixth season under Lewis next year with only one winning season under their belts. He's had long enough, and they seem to be regressing.

If we are to use those seven franchises as examples of how things can be, then we can use the other 24 franchises as examples of how things could be better. Again, we should expect more, and most NFL cities do.

Fair enough, but I really just think it is too easy to point fingers at Marvin as clueless. He has made some bad moves, he has made some good moves. The imbalance in the criticisms is what gets me defensive. And it isn't really having too low of expecations that gives rise to my way of thinking, it is trying to be fair in my expectations and not just take the easy route--"losing season, coach sucks, get a new one, same ole Bungles" and all the other cliches.

[macro]

Fair enough, but I really just think it is too easy to point fingers at Marvin as clueless. He has made some bad moves, he has made some good moves. The imbalance in the criticisms is what gets me defensive. And it isn't really having too low of expecations that gives rise to my way of thinking, it is trying to be fair in my expectations and not just take the easy route--"losing season, coach sucks, get a new one, same ole Bungles" and all the other cliches.

While I am firmly in the camp that believes that Lewis is in over his head, I also realize that it won't matter who the coach is as long as the Browns are in charge. I read today that soP said in recent days that he will not hire an actual GM and he, his daughter, and her husband will continue to ruin things. (No, that's not a typo.) So, while I have lost faith in Marvin, I realize that replacing him won't change things as long as things continue to be mismanaged at the top.

EDIT: Just read the Bengals-Bills thread and realized that others are saying likewise.

[Cedric]

While I am firmly in the camp that believes that Lewis is in over his head, I also realize that it won't matter who the coach is as long as the Browns are in charge. I read today that soP said in recent days that he will not hire an actual GM and he, his daughter, and her husband will continue to ruin things. (No, that's not a typo.) So, while I have lost faith in Marvin, I realize that replacing him won't change things as long as things continue to be mismanaged at the top.

EDIT: Just read the Bengals-Bills thread and realized that others are saying likewise.

It's not rocket science, I agree. ZERO accountability from Mike Brown and that starts from the top and reaches the last player. Remember when Canute Curtis was always going to make the team before each season? It's just like that now but in other ways. We have a man clearly in over his head and Mike Brown won't realize that until it's WAY too late.