Let's talk about Jay Bruce and his swing over the years

[Steve4192]

You mean until he got to the Bigs? That happens to a lot of players, MLB pitchers are a lot better than AAA pitchers.

Dunn is a pretty extreme example though. He went from being a 300 hitter with a slightly below average strikeout rate to being a 240 hitter with a historically awful strikeout rate. That is unusual.

[Mario-Rijo]

Nothing really new here. It has been obvious that he has become more of a pull hitter. When those hips and lead shoulder start opening up early it makes it almost impossible to hit anything on the outside half of the plate. This has been Bruce's problem when he's going bad. There's no doubt Jacoby and Bruce know this, but it's a tough thing to fix.

I'm reminded of what Lee Trevino used to say when discussing a fade/slice vs. a hook (golf terms -- slice is like going to the opposite field, hook like pulling the ball). He would say, "You can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen." And Ben Hogan said, "I hate a hook ... it's like a rattlesnake in your pocket." The chief causes for a persistent hook are the same as those for pull-hitters -- the front side opens up too soon. It's a devil to fix.

While I agree it's not simple to fix it's a matter of him understanding he can turn on the fastball without having to jump right on it. He is quick enough to the ball, he needs to be constantly reminded to hit the off speed stuff, he will react to the FB when he sees it.

[Redhook]

Nothing really new here. It has been obvious that he has become more of a pull hitter. When those hips and lead shoulder start opening up early it makes it almost impossible to hit anything on the outside half of the plate. This has been Bruce's problem when he's going bad. There's no doubt Jacoby and Bruce know this, but it's a tough thing to fix.

I agree.

I'm reminded of what Lee Trevino used to say when discussing a fade/slice vs. a hook (golf terms -- slice is like going to the opposite field, hook like pulling the ball). He would say, "You can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen." And Ben Hogan said, "I hate a hook ... it's like a rattlesnake in your pocket." The chief causes for a persistent hook are the same as those for pull-hitters -- the front side opens up too soon. It's a devil to fix.

I completely understand what you were trying to say, but you actually have it backwards. If you open up too soon in golf, you will pull and slice the ball. Hooking is caused by the body being too passive and the hands taking over. If Bruce plays golf, I bet he hits ton of massive 350 yard pulls and slices off to the left.

Bruce, in golf terms, is a typical slicer (puller) of the ball who tries to do too much too soon. If he can remain just slightly more patient (square longer) he'll be able to hit the ball to the opposite more easily. Not easy to do for baseball players, or most golfers.

[Redhook]

Dunn is a pretty extreme example though. He went from being a 300 hitter with a slightly below average strikeout rate to being a 240 hitter with a historically awful strikeout rate. That is unusual.

He was a better pure hitter early on in his career. I was really impressed with his swing his rookie year. Then it gradually got longer and more pull-proned.

[osuceltic]

I agree.



I completely understand what you were trying to say, but you actually have it backwards. If you open up too soon in golf, you will pull and slice the ball. Hooking is caused by the body being too passive and the hands taking over. If Bruce plays golf, I bet he hits ton of massive 350 yard pulls and slices off to the left.

Bruce, in golf terms, is a typical slicer (puller) of the ball who tries to do too much too soon. If he can remain just slightly more patient (square longer) he'll be able to hit the ball to the opposite more easily. Not easy to do for baseball players, or most golfers.

Yes and no. There are different types of hooks/fades. I'm talking about the kind where you open up too early, come over the top and pull and snap hook. You're right that if you open up like that and the hands don't keep up, it will result in lazy pushes/pop-up fades.

Unfortunately, I have become something of an expert ...

[hebroncougar]

To me, it seems this has a lot to do with Jacoby or a philosophy, or am I wrong? I think about everyone the Reds bring up turns into a pull hitter (save for Votto)?

[RollyInRaleigh]

I agree.



I completely understand what you were trying to say, but you actually have it backwards. If you open up too soon in golf, you will pull and slice the ball. Hooking is caused by the body being too passive and the hands taking over. If Bruce plays golf, I bet he hits ton of massive 350 yard pulls and slices off to the left.

Bruce, in golf terms, is a typical slicer (puller) of the ball who tries to do too much too soon. If he can remain just slightly more patient (square longer) he'll be able to hit the ball to the opposite more easily. Not easy to do for baseball players, or most golfers.

I think you have it backwards. A slice, in golf, and a pull in baseball are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Totally opposite. Osuceltic explained it perfectly.

[RedsManRick]

I'd be curious to see when that lean changed. If I recall, he destroyed the league initially and then slumped hard. Perhaps the stance that allowed him to better drive the ball the other way was leaving him susceptible to hard, inside stuff. After a few times around the league, pitchers figured that out and forced him to adjust.

And after he gets beat a few times inside, perhaps that's when he starts jumping a bit again and works himself in to a funk.

Just a thought.

[RollyInRaleigh]

My thoughts exactly, Rick.

[Redhook]

Yes and no. There are different types of hooks/fades. I'm talking about the kind where you open up too early, come over the top and pull and snap hook. You're right that if you open up like that and the hands don't keep up, it will result in lazy pushes/pop-up fades.

Unfortunately, I have become something of an expert ...

Thanks for taking the time to go into further explanation. I agree with what you just said. I still think you're original paragraph, in golf terms, was backwards. Slices and pulls are caused by the exact same swing. The only difference is an open clubface at impact. True pull-hooks, like you mentioned, are more rare than bald eagles.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Pulled means that a righty hits it to the 3rd base side and a lefty hits it to the 1st base side. A slice goes the opposite way.

[Redhook]

Pulled means that a righty hits it to the 3rd base side and a lefty hits it to the 1st base side. A slice goes the opposite way.

It goes the opposite way because of deflection off the club face and spin. Same swing.

[Ghosts of 1990]

You mean until he got to the Bigs? That happens to a lot of players, MLB pitchers are a lot better than AAA pitchers.

Dunn hit .300 squarely his first full first half in the big leagues in 2002 and was an all-star...

[Ghosts of 1990]

To me, it seems this has a lot to do with Jacoby or a philosophy, or am I wrong? I think about everyone the Reds bring up turns into a pull hitter (save for Votto)?

I agree with you. I don't think that Jacoby teaches a very good approach. I don't play for the Reds so I don't know what that approach is. Some guys, they're going to be beyond anything a hitting coach can tell them. like Votto for instance.

Jacoby hasn't done guys like Bruce any favors in my opinion.

[dougdirt]

Dunn hit .300 squarely his first full first half in the big leagues in 2002 and was an all-star...

BABIP in 2002 through the All Star break: .386
BABIP in 2002 after the All Star break: .235
BABIP in his career: .288

Dunn hit for a good average in the first half of 2002 because he was incredibly BABIP lucky and his strikeout rate was *only* 25.1% at the time, which for him is very good, but for everyone else would be very poor (25% K rate puts you in the bottom 5.5% of players since 2000 with at least 1500 MLB PA's).