It's just about the competition for said poster. From Phillips to Stubbs it becomes personal because HE won't be budged. It's degrade at all costs.
It's just about the competition for said poster. From Phillips to Stubbs it becomes personal because HE won't be budged. It's degrade at all costs.
This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.
My last few comments have nothing to do about Stubbs at all. I'm commenting on selfishness when it comes to individual achievement, like players triggering contract bonuses, padding stats for arbitration, or finishing up the last year of a contract before they venture into free agency.Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman
None of those have anything to do with Drew Stubbs at all.
As for the power, Stubbs gave us no reason to believe he has power based on his minor league stats, and the only time he's displayed power he was swinging an aluminum bat.
Some have said he tweaked his swing, and if so, let's see what it can do over the course of a full season, rather than the last month of a season when he's the de facto starting CF.
I really wanna see who starts in CF once Dickerson and Taveras come off the DL, though.
Well maybe not that particular post. But the root of your post began in a prior post where you degraded everything that Stubbs has done to date in the major leagues because as you say, the games are now meaningless.
Of course, that standard never applied to the likes of Chris Denorfia. But when Stubbs does something right, there's always a myriad of reasons to simply sweep it under the rug. It's actually quite laughable at this point the types of arguments that are being used against Stubbs.
His dicey minor league track record should be enough to use against Stubbs. We don't need to make up fake reasons to use against the guy. Your right to be skeptical that his numbers to date are going to be difficult to repeat. At the same time, your wrong to continuously ignore them, and set ridiculous qualifications on his numbers to pretend they aren't worth their fair value.
Chris Dickerson hit 6 HRs in 122 PAs during his cup of coffee last year. He has hit 2 in 297 PAs this year.
I'm not getting all giddy about Stubbs' "power" just yet. Time will tell once the pitchers in the majors get the book on him.
Except that's not correct at all. Scouts told us the power was there, he just wasn't using it correctly. Some other talent evaluators backed up that statement. There was reason to believe he had power, but you refused to look at anything outside of numbers.
I was wrong about Chris Denorfia to some extent.
He had great minor league numbers, came up for his cup of coffee after The Trade, got sent back down, came back up end of season, put up solid numbers and then hurt himself in ST next year and that was it for Denorfia.
Once he went to the A's, he's flat out sucked something awful.
I'm not wrong about Stubbs yet. I hope I am wrong, b/c that'll mean that he wasn't a bust, and the Reds didn't waste a 1st Round Draft pick.
Apparently Stubbs' dicey minor league record is now a moot point b/c he's mashing HRs at the MLB level, while struggling to find 1B. I guess that's the happy ending to this chapter of the story?
Blind faith?
Stubbs showed NO power in 1800 minor league PAs, right? The numbers showed us that.
And then he's promoted to the MLB level and a switch is flicked and he's hitting HRs?
Something just doesn't add up.
[QUOTE=Highlifeman21;1974104]That obviously wasn't even the point. Denorfia got a free pass for years, even though he never played as good as Stubbs, even over a similar small sample size that Stubbs had. The only modicum of success that Deno ever really had was late in the season, much like Stubbs. The ridiculous qualifications asserted on Stubbs were never applied to Deno. Fair is fair, and I think their was obvious favouritism, and a complete lack of objectivity on the subject.I was wrong about Chris Denorfia to some extent.
He had great minor league numbers, came up for his cup of coffee after The Trade, got sent back down, came back up end of season, put up solid numbers and then hurt himself in ST next year and that was it for Denorfia.
Once he went to the A's, he's flat out sucked something awful.
Well sure you have. You've led people to believe that he would get eaten alive in the high minors and never even sniff the majors. He was supposed to be recylced on to another team long ago. He's not, by that virtue, you've already miscalculated on Stubbs quite badly. You could still ultimately be right on Stubbs, but to act like you've been spot on with Stubbs is to an extent, very wrong.I'm not wrong about Stubbs yet. I hope I am wrong, b/c that'll mean that he wasn't a bust, and the Reds didn't waste a 1st Round Draft pick.
And this is obviously a strawman, and not even a good one. That is not my argument. Nor is it anywhere close to the stance that I have represented.Apparently Stubbs' dicey minor league record is now a moot point b/c he's mashing HRs at the MLB level, while struggling to find 1B. I guess that's the happy ending to this chapter of the story?
I find that the debates around here start running into walls when posters take such hardlined positions, and never even consider budging due to preconceived notions. As more facts become available, you have to be able to examine them objectively, and to an extent, limit the preconceived notions.
What I'm trying to say is, Stubbs has a chance to succeed. He's not a bust. Your not a bust until you actually bust. He may have taken a mediocre road to get to the majors, but the guy is outperforming expectations, and as a result, there's none of this "Stubbs doesn't have a chance" nonsense. He has enough to skills and ability, that when combined with a minor league track record that is heavily exaggerated to be poor, and impressive major league play, I don't think it's fair to continue to evaluate the player as 100% hopeless. That's really the only point I'm trying to rebut here. Your more than welcome to not be optmistic about his future. There is ample evidence to support that side of things.
But this debate goes nowhere if the hardlined approach of preconceived notions is going to be the end all focal point of the discussion. When that happens, you just see any excuse used to degrade the player.
Just saw this on Sheldon's blog. Interesting.
Incidentally since Stubbs joined the Reds on Aug. 19 (notice the date), he leads the Reds in homers, total bases (65), steals and runs scored (20). His 36 hits are second to Brandon Phillips, who has 41.
Well said. What else, at this point, do we have to lose? What are our alternatives at this stage? He's earned it. Give him his shot.
"In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)
That is interesting. Dusty better not bench in favor of Willy
No, its not blind faith. There is a lot to be said about watching a player rather than simply just looking at his stats.
I disagree with that. I saw Stubbs hit some absolute bombs for HR's in the minors. While he didn't tap into it much, he certainly had the power.Stubbs showed NO power in 1800 minor league PAs, right? The numbers showed us that.
Mechanics changed and now the power that he showed at times in the minors is showing up with a bit ore frequency. Its like the pitcher who threw 95 in college, but then threw 89-92 in the minors for the most part. Then found the right coach to make a small switch mechanically and found that 95 heater again. It adds up if you simply look past his numbers and pay attention to scouting reports and actual tools.And then he's promoted to the MLB level and a switch is flicked and he's hitting HRs?
Something just doesn't add up.
How often does that happen?
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
It happened with Homer Bailey. Last year he was throwing 92-93 and this year he's at 97-98. A pitching coach from Texas helped him out
Honestly, the crux of the debate comes down to this:
1. Has Drew Stubbs exhibited power prior to this point?
2. Does Drew Stubbs possess the ability to hit for power beyond this point?
Based on minor leaguestats prior to reaching the majors, the answer to No. 1 is clearly "No." Where the difference lies, though, is that some people claim No. 1 is not mutually exclusive from the answer to No. 2 because minor league stats don't account for everything. Unfortunately there are two very distinct issues being debated, but the answers to each are not mutually exclusive from one another.
And, in a bit of a throwback argument, the rationale comes down to stats vs. scouting. Can scouts better predict what stats cannot? Or at least fill the gaps into what stats cannot?
The stats so far in the majors are corroborating the Scouts for No. 2, but obviously it's too early to make definitive judgments one way or another.
"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda
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