Get Bruce some extra help?

[Raisor]

If you're expecting someone to be better than joey be prepared to be disapointed.

[dubc47834]

Most of the best hitters in baseball have the power to hit homers opposite field. Bruce hasn't really done that. He only has a handful of homers to left in his career. That's why he hasn't established himself as a consistent hitter.

I will try to find this, but I saw a stat last year that his OPS to left was way below league average compared to all hitters when going opposite field. He simply doesn't make hard contact when going the other way.

If he can hit for power pulling the ball and hit for average going oppo I will take that. If he can put up the same power numbers but with a little bit higher average, I will take that also. I think there are many teams that would LOVE to have jay Bruce!!!

[Ghosts of 1990]

To say he has more ability than Votto is just wrong. Votto is one of the most physically gifted players in baseball. You don't have one infield popup in like three years without having an obscene amount of talent.

I don't know, I think it shows how wrong scouts are sometimes.

By all accounts, every scout in the game said Bruce was the finest prospect in the minor leagues and Votto would need to overachieve.

Since then we've seen that Votto is a Hall of Fame talent and Bruce is a guy struggling to find consistency. But Votto was never heralded as the #1 talent in all of baseball's minor leagues as Bruce was.

[Raisor]

Once again, Reds fans not appreciating what they have.

Dude is 26 coming off a .840+ OPS.

As far as "consistency", I don't care what he does month to month. I care where he ends up.

Would I like it if he could cut out the valley's and keep the high's? Of course. That's an easy choice.

But I'm fine if he stays exactly the way he is.

[Jamz]

To say he has more ability than Votto is just wrong. Votto is one of the most physically gifted players in baseball. You don't have one infield popup in like three years without having an obscene amount of talent.

Well, you see it in other sports all the time. Sometimes the mind is the most important aspect of an elite athlete. I think most would argue that Bruce is more physically gifted than Votto -- it's Votto' approach, mind for the game and work ethic that sets him apart from most players.

I'm more than happy with what Bruce is right now. If he can even improve on that it's just gravy. I also feel like because of Bruce's natural talents as he gets older and matures we could end up seeing that break-out year yet.

[dougdirt]

Well, you see it in other sports all the time. Sometimes the mind is the most important aspect of an elite athlete. I think most would argue that Bruce is more physically gifted than Votto -- it's Votto' approach, mind for the game and work ethic that sets him apart from most players.

I'm more than happy with what Bruce is right now. If he can even improve on that it's just gravy. I also feel like because of Bruce's natural talents as he gets older and matures we could end up seeing that break-out year yet.

On a physical tools side of things, Bruce is better in power, defense, speed and arm. Votto is better at the hit tool, but Bruce actually has a good "raw" hit tool that isn't that far behind the true hit tool of Votto. Toss in the position side of things, where Bruce came up as a center fielder, and well, it isn't tough to see why everyone thought Bruce would be better than Votto.

What happened though was that Votto got a whole lot better at defense than he was, which boosted his value after he was no longer a prospect and he has gotten the absolute most out of every last one of his hitting tools.

Bruce on the flip side saw his hit tool actually drop off because he changed his approach. He switched positions, which hurt his value quite a bit. His power went up, but it is mostly at the level where most expected it to be in that 30-35 HR range.

Jay Bruce is like most players. He has an upside that he doesn't reach. Joey Votto is unlike most players. He seems to get every last ounce out of every tools he has. Guys like that are a rare breed, much less ones that also have really good tools to work with.

[GADawg]

i love this new willingness to go to the opposite field....exactly the kind of thing that will get him(or any other player)going....won't be long til he'll be drilling the ball out to right and when he does I hope he remembers what got him going...imo of course

[RedEye]

On a physical tools side of things, Bruce is better in power, defense, speed and arm. Votto is better at the hit tool, but Bruce actually has a good "raw" hit tool that isn't that far behind the true hit tool of Votto. Toss in the position side of things, where Bruce came up as a center fielder, and well, it isn't tough to see why everyone thought Bruce would be better than Votto.

Random question -- I hear the expression "hit tool" thrown around a lot these days. Is saying a player is "a good hitter" different from saying he has "a good hit tool"? Or is it a reference to contact ability? Is this scout speak for something more specific?

[dougdirt]

Random question -- I hear the expression "hit tool" thrown around a lot these days. Is saying a player is "a good hitter" different from saying he has "a good hit tool"? Or is it a reference to contact ability? Is this scout speak for something more specific?

There is more to a hit tool than simply making contact. Being able to hit the ball, hard, counts just as much as contact, if not more. Being able to hit it hard to all fields is usually what gives guys real good hit tool grades.

[reds44]

I don't know, I think it shows how wrong scouts are sometimes.

By all accounts, every scout in the game said Bruce was the finest prospect in the minor leagues and Votto would need to overachieve.

Since then we've seen that Votto is a Hall of Fame talent and Bruce is a guy struggling to find consistency. But Votto was never heralded as the #1 talent in all of baseball's minor leagues as Bruce was.

Who cares what scouts said 5 years ago?

Joey Votto is one of the (and quite possibly THE) most talented hitter in all of baseball. Power, eye, bat speed, bat control, approach, he literally has it all. Sure, did he work hard for it? Yes, but he has a ton of God given natural ability.

Also, I have no reason to believe Jay Bruce isn't working hard. I also hate the "going the other way" has become this thing for Bruce. When he's really going well, he's hitting the hell out of the ball and most of the time pulling it. I like that he's going the other way to get himself going a little bit, but I want Bruce hitting for power.

[RedEye]

There is more to a hit tool than simply making contact. Being able to hit the ball, hard, counts just as much as contact, if not more. Being able to hit it hard to all fields is usually what gives guys real good hit tool grades.

So how is it different than the "power tool" then? Or is the "hit tool" a combined scouting term whereas power is something more limited?

[dougdirt]

So how is it different than the "power tool" then?

Using Joey Votto in the second half last year as an example. He could hit line drives to all fields. But he couldn't hit for any power. He wasn't getting any loft, but he was still hitting the ball hard.

[RedEye]

Using Joey Votto in the second half last year as an example. He could hit line drives to all fields. But he couldn't hit for any power. He wasn't getting any loft, but he was still hitting the ball hard.

I see -- so "power" in this context means hitting HR and extra base hits, whereas the "hit tool" just means your ability to spray the ball around and make contact. We could say that Ichiro in his prime had an amazing "hit tool" but a weak "power tool." Likewise, Adam Dunn has an amazing "power tool" with a minimal "hit tool."

I'm going to stop repeating these terms now, don't worry.

Thanks, dougdirt.

[dougdirt]

You don't have to spray the ball around, but there aren't many dead pull hitters with good hit tools. It is hard to pull the inside and outside strike consistently.

[RedEye]

You don't have to spray the ball around, but there aren't many dead pull hitters with good hit tools. It is hard to pull the inside and outside strike consistently.

I see. So going the other way is key to a good hit tool then?