Tony Perez v Joey Votto--My take vs Sabrologists in ORG

[George Anderson]

Yep. If the Reds had kept Perez and traded Driessen to the A's after the 1977 season for Vida Blue, Kuhn may not have voided the trade.

Why wouldn't Kuhn still veto the trade? If you look at the numbers in 1977 Driessen and Perez were pretty comparable with Driessen having more upside being better defensively and younger.

[RedlegJake]

Well, Kuhn's reason for vetoing the trade was it was primarily a money deal with the Reds not trading a significant player, thereby creating "competitive imbalance" (as if that was never a problem for baseball before the Blue deal). Perhaps if they had offered Driessen he wouldn't have cancelled the deal. Then they keep Perez, add Blue and Seaver, and if they aren't so stubborn, also keep Gullett. Even without Gully, though, if they kept Caldwell, with Norman having a solid year they still would have had a great pitching staff.

And RedsBaron, I stand corrected. My memory is getting old, I could have sworn Caldwell won the CY with the Crew but you are right, my friend. Heckuva year but he didn't win it, 2nd to Lightning.

[RedsBaron]

Why wouldn't Kuhn still veto the trade? If you look at the numbers in 1977 Driessen and Perez were pretty comparable with Driessen having more upside being better defensively and younger.

The Reds traded Dave Revering, who had yet to play in the majors, to the A's for Vida Blue, the trade that Kuhn later voided. Perez had been gone for a year by that point. My guess is that a Driessen for Blue trade, or even a Perez for Blue trade had the Reds kept Doggie, might have met with Kuhn's o.k. As it was, the Reds got nothing useful when they traded Perez away after the '76 season.

[RedsBaron]

Well, Kuhn's reason for vetoing the trade was it was primarily a money deal with the Reds not trading a significant player, thereby creating "competitive imbalance" (as if that was never a problem for baseball before the Blue deal). Perhaps if they had offered Driessen he wouldn't have cancelled the deal. Then they keep Perez, add Blue and Seaver, and if they aren't so stubborn, also keep Gullett. Even without Gully, though, if they kept Caldwell, with Norman having a solid year they still would have had a great pitching staff.

And RedsBaron, I stand corrected. My memory is getting old, I could have sworn Caldwell won the CY with the Crew but you are right, my friend. Heckuva year but he didn't win it, 2nd to Lightning.

My memory wasn't perfect. I thought Grimsley was still with the Orioles in 1978. Actually by that point he had been reunited with Perez in Montreal, going 20-11 that season with the Expos.

[Raisor]

I won, right?

I'm pretty sure I won.

[Don Votto]

I won, right?

I'm pretty sure I won.

How? Obviously you have a difficult time with either reading or reading comprehension. I repeatedly said PEREZ AND VOTTO WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE LINEUP. THat it would have been Griffey or Foster would have been out of the lineup.

[Raisor]

How? Obviously you have a difficult time with either reading or reading comprehension. I repeatedly said PEREZ AND VOTTO WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE LINEUP. THat it would have been Griffey or Foster would have been out of the lineup.

But that wasn't the question.

So yes, I won.

[Don Votto]

But that wasn't the question.

So yes, I won.

Re-read my original post. I never stated one way or the other. The closest was saying that who was the better overall ball player, between Votto or Perez.

How about this when Votto gets to the hall of fame, let's have a discussion. But if the past 200 games are any indication of what the future holds in Votto's career, then that discussion will only be at the Reds Hall of Fame and not Cooperstown.

[Raisor]

Nope, I win.

[Nathan]

[gilpdawg]

Re-read my original post. I never stated one way or the other. The closest was saying that who was the better overall ball player, between Votto or Perez.

How about this when Votto gets to the hall of fame, let's have a discussion. But if the past 200 games are any indication of what the future holds in Votto's career, then that discussion will only be at the Reds Hall of Fame and not Cooperstown.

The voting pool will be much more saber friendly by the time Votto is eligible.

[Raisor]

The voting pool will be much more saber friendly by the time Votto is eligible.

Boom!

[Don Votto]

The voting pool will be much more saber friendly by the time Votto is eligible.

I certainly hope so...
Since Votto probably will retire with sub 400 home runs, sub 2800 hits, sub 1400 rbi (I know it's a team stat and not that important... yadda yadda yadda) hopefully his outstanding OPS over .900 (assuming he can keep that career pace for the next... oh... ten years), anyways hopefully his .900+ OPS will get not only Votto, but some of these players in the Hall as well.

So, here are the Saber-Hall-of-Famers ready for enshrinement.

(The ever import .900 and above OPS. Apparently, that is what "true fans" of baseball measure a player's career in.

Go watch Money Ball Raisor and imagine Brad Pitt is asking you the question at the table, so you can tell us, he gets on base.

I win.


Name avg obp slg CAREER HR
Bryan Giles .291/.400/.502 287
Jim Edmonds .284/.376/.527 393
Ryan Howard .270/.360/.543 317
Juan Gonzalez .295/.343/.561 434
Mo Vaughn .293/.383/.523 328
Gary Sheffield .292/.393/.514 509
Ken Griffey JR .284/.370/.538 630
Prince Fielder .284/.388/.523 287
Richie Allen .292/.378/.534 351
Matt Holliday .310/.386/.528 253
Babe Herman .324/.383/.532 181
Jason Giambi .277/.400/.418 438
Mike Piazza .308/.377/.545 427
Ken Williams .319/.393/.530 196
David Ortiz .286/.381/.547 437
King Kong Keller .286/.410/.928 189
Carlos Delgado .280/.383/.546 473
Chipper Jones .303/.401/.529 468
Vladimir Guerrero .318/.379/.553 449
Edgar Martinez .312/.418/.515 309
Albert Belle .295/.369/.564 381
Ryan Braun .312/.374/.565 217
Joe Jackson .356/.423/.517 54
Alex Rodriguez .299/.384/.558 654
Lance Berkman .293/.406/.537 366
Lefty O'Doul .349/.413/.532 113
Jeff Bagwell .297/.408/.540 449
Todd Helton .316/.414/.539 369
Jim Thome .276/.402/.554 612
Joey Votto .313/.420/.538 161
Miguel Cabrera .320/.398/.565 367
Larry Walker .313/.400/.565 383
Mark McGwire .263/.394/.588 583
Manny Ramirez .313/.411/.585 555
Albert Pujols .321/.409/.599 502
Barry Bonds .298/.444/.607 762
Bill Joyce .293/.435/.467 70

[Larry Schuler]

What a terrible list of players!

[Don Votto]

Oh, it's a bevy of all-stars, but less than half of that list are Hall of Fame or future Hall of Fame players.

Ken Griffey JR .284/.370/.538 630
Gary Sheffield .292/.393/.514 509
Mike Piazza .308/.377/.545 427
Chipper Jones .303/.401/.529 468
Vladimir Guerrero .318/.379/.553 449
Edgar Martinez .312/.418/.515 309
Albert Belle .295/.369/.564 381
Joe Jackson .356/.423/.517 54
Alex Rodriguez .299/.384/.558 654
Jeff Bagwell .297/.408/.540 449
Jim Thome .276/.402/.554 612
Miguel Cabrera .320/.398/.565 367
Manny Ramirez .313/.411/.585 555
Albert Pujols .321/.409/.599 502
Barry Bonds .298/.444/.607 762

(or who I think... anyways...

Vladimir Guerrero should get in, but... who knows... was he flashy enough? Did he win big anywhere?
Edgar Martinez won't
Albert Belle is off the ballot.
Sheffield, Bonds, Ramirez, Rodriguez--Steroids....
Obviously... Joe Jackson