Reds catching question

[Kc61]

It'd be more an issue if running was an actual part of the game these days.

If the catcher can't throw, it becomes part of the game.

That's why I asked about Mes' throwing in this thread.

[Raisor]

Rocco.

Much cooler than Mes.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Chuck it would be one thing if Hanigan was even +.650 for the season. He's -130 less than that.

Rocco is out OPSing him by 200 points for the year.

He's on pace to create more than twice as many runs than Hanigan. (Assuming 300 pa for each)

2 things. Do you really think Hanigan will continue to struggle at this kind of pace? And how many runs has Hanny helped save by his catching skills?

As I said, I'm fine if they start to move things towards Devin now. It's clear he's the catcher of our future. But using less than a third of a season as a reason for the move is kinda silly, wouldn't you agree?

[Raisor]

2 things. Do you really think Hanigan will continue to struggle at this kind of pace? And how many runs has Hanny helped save by his catching skills?

As I said, I'm fine if they start to move things towards Devin now. It's clear he's the catcher of our future. But using less than a third of a season as a reason for the move is kinda silly, wouldn't you agree?

It's not only due to the current stats, though yes that's part of it.

Rocco needs the PA's and he needs the innings behind the plate. He's not going to get better until he plays more.

When you add together all the variables together it adds up that Rocco should have the bulk of the playing time.

Let me ask you Chuck, what does Rocco have to do to be given the bulk of the time?

He's been way better on offense and he's not killing the team on defense. In fact, he's been fine, IMO

[_Sir_Charles_]

It's not only due to the current stats, though yes that's part of it.

Rocco needs the PA's and he needs the innings behind the plate. He's not going to get better until he plays more.

When you add together all the variables together it adds up that Rocco should have the bulk of the playing time.

Let me ask you Chuck, what does Rocco have to do to be given the bulk of the time?

He's been way better on offense and he's not killing the team on defense. In fact, he's been fine, IMO

Nothing. I agree...they should begin the move. I disagree that he's been "fine". He hasn't really hurt us yet, but if he continues with his current mechanics...he will. The passed balls will mount.

My biggest point in this conversation isn't who should be starting more, it's the fact that pointing to their current batting stats are a poor reason to make the move. Catcher is a defense first position. More than ANY other position on the field. Only SS & CF are even close...but they are considerably well back in importance IMO. People who keep clamoring for Mes over Hanny really need to step back and watch several games unbiasedly at their defensive differences. They're striking. Mes'...opps, sorry...Rocco's foot work is poor, his throwing accuracy is poor, his receiving is poor (turning the glove too much, reaching too much), his framing is poor (stabs too much and jerks back too violently), etc. He's CLEARLY got the tools...but I really wish they'd bring Rick Sweet or someone in to work with him on his fundamentals and mechanics. Heck, let Hanny work with him. Until these issues get sorted out, I'm not going to be overly pleased with Rocco behind the dish. He'll only be "acceptable" for me...and barely so. I'd LOVED to be proven wrong...because I really like the kid.

For me, I ignore the bat entirely for a catcher. I want the best defender there. If the defense is close on 2 guys...I let the bat be the tie breaker as to who I start. Right now, the defense isn't close. But he's also been here long enough...he needs more reps (and coaching).

[RedEye]

I know we're not supposed to talk well of the Cardinals on this board, but there's a guy named Yadier Molina who is All-Star level with glove, arm, and bat.

Agreed. But it took him longer to develop the bat part. I was trying to suggest that very few catchers are complete products early on.

[WebScorpion]

This minor league scouting report couldn't be any more wrong.

and this comment couldn't be any more derisive. I guess I should have said I didn't know if he'd ever hit enough to stay in the majors. Are you saying it didn't take him a full season at each level to pick up his hitting? Anyway that was my impression...nobody's going to pay me for my opinion, but it's no more 'wrong' than your existence on the planet, sweetheart.

[mth123]

Nothing. I agree...they should begin the move. I disagree that he's been "fine". He hasn't really hurt us yet, but if he continues with his current mechanics...he will. The passed balls will mount.

My biggest point in this conversation isn't who should be starting more, it's the fact that pointing to their current batting stats are a poor reason to make the move. Catcher is a defense first position. More than ANY other position on the field. Only SS & CF are even close...but they are considerably well back in importance IMO. People who keep clamoring for Mes over Hanny really need to step back and watch several games unbiasedly at their defensive differences. They're striking. Mes'...opps, sorry...Rocco's foot work is poor, his throwing accuracy is poor, his receiving is poor (turning the glove too much, reaching too much), his framing is poor (stabs too much and jerks back too violently), etc. He's CLEARLY got the tools...but I really wish they'd bring Rick Sweet or someone in to work with him on his fundamentals and mechanics. Heck, let Hanny work with him. Until these issues get sorted out, I'm not going to be overly pleased with Rocco behind the dish. He'll only be "acceptable" for me...and barely so. I'd LOVED to be proven wrong...because I really like the kid.

For me, I ignore the bat entirely for a catcher. I want the best defender there. If the defense is close on 2 guys...I let the bat be the tie breaker as to who I start. Right now, the defense isn't close. But he's also been here long enough...he needs more reps (and coaching).

Defense is funny. When a guy can hit a little, his defense generally is under-rated. When a guy is a light hitter, his defense gets blown out of proportion the other way. There really isn't a system or stat that can capture the defensive value of a catcher. Most focus too much on throwing, which is actually not a real large percentage of the plays a Catcher makes. Things that focus on pitching stats, like Catcher's ERA, are influenced much too much by the Pitcher and not the Catcher. Range is mostly a non-issue behind the plate and "calling a good game" is pretty subjective, could be largely coming from the dug-out or the pitcher himself and doesn't really mean what most people think it means. So reputation ends up coloring how we view things and a light hitter generally comes up with the rep of being a good defender because, logically, why would he be in the majors if he wasn't strong defensively since he doesn't hit much? Conversely, a guy with 30 HR power as a minor leaguer almost automatically comes to the majors with questions about his defense for similar reasons. For a catcher especially, where we don't see them range for a fly ball, dive for a grounder and can't even fall back on some of the (IMO flawed) defensive metrics, it has a bigger influence IMO.

My impression is that Hanigan is a really good defensive catcher, but I wonder if the value of that has become overblown. Mesoraco has improved dramatically since last season IMO. This year I've seen a much quieter glove back there as compared to last year. I actually haven't seen nearly as much "stabbing" at the ball as we saw last year (perhaps that has to do with Leake hitting his spots more often). I've also not noticed the footwork issue. Hanigan went through a period where his throws were tailing off, it happens.

When Mes came-up, I was as excited as everyone that the Reds were going to have a catcher with some middle of the order capability and he fell flat on his face IMO. His defense was iffy last season and he didn't hit much (though watching his PAs I had the impression that a decent hitter was in there somewhere). I was in the camp that playing time was not something he should just be given, but that he needed to take the job.

To his credit, Mesoraco has worked hard, improved his defense well beyond the point of acceptability and hits pretty much every time he plays of late. Meanwhile Hanigan has fallen-off, is in the last season of his deal and is heading for arb at age 33. Mesoraco has done more than enough to take the job (or at least the larger share of it) IMO. The current line-up needs his RH bat, his defense is fine IMO even if it may be a bit below Hanigan's and Hanigan appears in decline IMO. I think the team needs Mes right now and the future is certainly his. In 2014, one of Hanigan's claims to PT, his status as Arroyo's personal catcher, will be gone. Homer Bailey has kind of shown that it doesn't really matter who his catcher is. He had good games throwing to Mes while Hanigan was hurt and crummy games (like last night) throwing to Hanigan. In General, let Hanigan have Arroyo and Cueto and let Mes catch when Homer, Leake and Latos pitch for a while. I wouldn't set that in stone and I'd let each pitcher get some exposure to each catcher, but as a general framework, it would seem a decent way to split the time.

IMO its time to see if Mes steps up with an increased role and time to see if the extra rest helps Hanigan out. If last season's performance was the criteria, it should be now as well and Mes has been the better player while Hanigan is exiting his prime. Hanigan was at his best when Ramon was here and he had a smaller share of the PT. Perhaps a shift from 60% to 40% will help him as well (and a reduced role is in his near future since 33 is getting old for a catcher). Hanigan has always been a tandem guy with only one season, even in the minors, with more than 400 PAs. He may benefit with reduced PT as he ages.